Xavier

[TheLongHaul]

Regardless of who has been the better program, XU has owned UC head to head over the past 20 years. XU steps up, UC caves in. It's pretty embarrassing.

 

[Bulldog01]

Regardless of who has been the better program, XU has owned UC head to head over the past 20 years. XU steps up, UC caves in. It's pretty embarrassing.

Past embarrassing. It's expected

 

[bearcat jeff]

Regardless of who has been the better program, XU has owned UC head to head over the past 20 years. XU steps up, UC caves in. It's pretty embarrassing.

On that I agree with you. They've won I believe 12 of the last 17.

 

[indydoug]

Jeff, Why do you think that is? It's a bit trite to say it means more to them. Better talent? Not year in year out. Better BASKETBALL players? Probably a lot of factors....

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

Regardless of who has been the better program, XU has owned UC head to head over the past 20 years. XU steps up, UC caves in. It's pretty embarrassing.

Have to agree. They have kicked our trails lately. Lastnight they made the plays when it counted and we didn't.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

His team this year, in West Virginia mind you, is more talented than any team Cronin's assembled.

I am living in the present. In the present, I don't think Cronin can get it done.

Check out West Va's shooting stats this year...

 

[bearcat jeff]

Going back to the first year 5/3rd opened X leads the series 14-11. Huggs started out 5-1 against them and then lost 6 of the next 8. Believe after last night Cronin is 3-7.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Jeff I'm not so sure they aren't a better program during this century. Haven't had time to look at NCAA tourney success or top 25 finishes or other metrics as to who has better program last 15-16 years but it wouldn't surprise me if XU rates better than UC in most. I guess it depends on how you define "better program". As a former UC player, it pains me to even think it but I believe it's true given the short time frame.

The only time X was better was when my grandpa was playing and coaching there

 

[jacobkdoyle]

I think it's relevant when he's coming into our home state and getting the talent. All of these guys rank higher than any current recruit on our roster:

Juwan Staten, Dayton (4 Star-#49 Rivals)
Devin Williams, Cincinnati (4 star-#64 Rivals)
Elijah Macon, Columbus (4 Star-#56 Rivals)
Esa Ahmad, Cleveland (4 Star-#71 Rivals)

I'd like to see us do more in-state recruiting.

 

[bearcat jeff]

Jeff, Why do you think that is? It's a bit trite to say it means more to them. Better talent? Not year in year out. Better BASKETBALL players? Probably a lot of factors....

Think there are many factors. I do believe the fact Cronin and Huggins both downplay this game hurts. It's comparable to me the way Marvin Lewis downplays playoff games as "just another game." I think his attitude on the postseason rubs off on his players and the record shows because of it. The other team doesnt see it as just another game and plays like it isn't. I also believe that Xavier recruits basketball players who have made basketball plays where UC recruits athletes. It is a contrast in styles and when you're in crunch time and a close game (like most rivalry games are) and have to make basketball plays guess where the pendulum swings?

Kenyon Martin I believe was 1-3 against X.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Believe me, nothing gets my blood flowing like UC basketball but think objectively here regarding Dayton:

Better conference (A10's RPI is higher)
Less competition/more support (yes-higher attendance)
Better arena (yes-always chosen to host tourneys)
Plus they got Archie...

Wait...so better conference AND less competition? Umm???

 

[Doogle]

I'm going to echo some things that Jeff and others have said...and let me preface this by saying that I'm as down and discouraged as I've ever been about the program. Count me in the group of people that considers this game more of a nuisance than something to celebrate...but there is no justification or acceptable reason for what has happened in this game for the past 2 decades. None. The good fortune that seems to follow Xavier like a lovesick puppy into ever Shootout brings into question the existence of God. Or at the very least, God's love for the University of Cincinnati. He still must be miffed that we hired the AntiChrist (Zimpher) for a short period.

You have to recruit scorers/shooters. PERIOD. And you can't tell me that there isn't some long range bomber out there that would love to play for UC. There's a senior at Miami named Will Sullivan that's hitting 47% of his 3's this year (taking 3-4 per game), played at York HS in Illinois and was a state All-Star (so he wasn't unknown)...and by the way, was Miami's defensive player of the year last season. Found him on the first website I went to, Lord knows how many more guys are out there like this. Not saying this specific kid would have chose UC over Miami...but c'mon. You get my point.

You need a specialist or two. And you need to recruit basketball players, especially at the point and wing positions. Maybe Justin Jennifer is that guy for Mick. He got Cash Wright. I'm not discounting the notion that Mick is trying to find good PGs. I am questioning his decisions to find SKILLED shooters and wings. I say 'decisions' rather than abilities because it feels like something philosophical. I'm sure guys like Shaq Thomas are human highlight reels on the HS level, and guys like KJ are physically superior when they're playing at Cincinnati Country Day. But at some point, isn't their skill level just as important as their physical abilities?

Huggins finally had an epiphany when he had seen his 3rd or 4th flashy, muscular point guard dribble the ball off his foot for the 300th time and offered a kid from Cleveland who was dying to come to UC but up until that point had been virtually ignored by Huggins. That kid did not fit the Bearcat template from a physical standpoint but had skill and will. That turned out fine, don't you think?

We'll have to give him another year with the guys he has coming in, but fellas it's going to be nearly impossible to sit through another year of watching guys pass the ball around aimlessly, and clank 6 footers. World class athletic ability with an NAIA skill set won't cut it anymore. When you play your crosstown rival AT HOME, shoot 17 more shots, turn it over 9 less times, outscore them 42-16 in the paint, hold them to 5 fast break points, out rebound them overall, and LOSE? Fellas, that's not a cause for optimism. That tells you all you need to know about the skill level of your team.

They played hard last night, and I appreciate it. They outplayed Xavier for most of the night, and by a wide margin in the 2nd half. The fact that they trailed a middling team for 33 of 40 minutes while playing that hard and dominating an entire half like they did is frightening. They held one of the best offensive teams in the country (by the numbers anyway) to 17 points below their average and to a 17 point 2nd half (until the final minute) AND STILL LOST. Xavier had one thing: the ability to hit shots. That one factor trumped every other thing UC crushed them at.

I suppose we should be thanking Xavier today, because if that game didn't elucidate exactly the type of player that's needed and alter Mick's philosophy, then nothing will. All the rebounding, defense and effort in the world will not replace the ability to put ball in basket.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

If you are comparing two programs you have to look at the big picture. UC had to do a complete rebuild. Start from absolute scratch. And those are the numbers they lead by. I find that to be more embarrassing for Xavier. Also tournament success does not define a program. The tournament is an unpredictable animal. It's a single elimination tournament. Seeding, match ups, geography, injury (Sorry Kenyon), luck, and how hot a team is all play into the success and failure. UCONN was mediocre all last year. Got hot and went on to win it all. Wins, recruiting, NBA players, tournament appearances, conference, top 25 rankings, all americans, coaching, wins against top 25 teams, schedule, and more go into where your program is at. Over the last 15 years even with the 5 year death penalty we help our ground as a program. George Mason went to a final 4 but where are they now? Many more factors go into a program outside of the tournament.

Xavier has gone through their share of coaches as well. Not saying they're better at all. But that's a factor if UC rebuilding mid 2000s is.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Never have been a fan of Sanders, he is slow unathletic and seems like every shot he takes, he has a different shooting form. As a team you cannot count on him to have good games, senior or not. Would rather have guyn than him all day long.

It is almost like Sanders is trying to "will" it into the hoop. Just shoot the freaking ball.

 

[LeftyRose]

Wait...so better conference AND less competition? Umm???

Jacob-Less competition for entertainment dollars.

Regarding WVU, with the exception of Staten, they are young too. Play in the best conference. Also, they play a high possession style on purpose, which reduces FGP. They are #14 in possessions per game. We are #338. VA is low possession too, so yes, you can win both ways.

 

[bearcat jeff]

I'm going to echo some things that Jeff and others have said...and let me preface this by saying that I'm as down and discouraged as I've ever been about the program. Count me in the group of people that considers this game more of a nuisance than something to celebrate...but there is no justification or acceptable reason for what has happened in this game for the past 2 decades. None. The good fortune that seems to follow Xavier like a lovesick puppy into ever Shootout brings into question the existence of God. Or at the very least, God's love for the University of Cincinnati. He still must be miffed that we hired the AntiChrist (Zimpher) for a short period.

You have to recruit scorers/shooters. PERIOD. And you can't tell me that there isn't some long range bomber out there that would love to play for UC. There's a senior at Miami named Will Sullivan that's hitting 47% of his 3's this year (taking 3-4 per game), played at York HS in Illinois and was a state All-Star (so he wasn't unknown)...and by the way, was Miami's defensive player of the year last season. Found him on the first website I went to, Lord knows how many more guys are out there like this. Not saying this specific kid would have chose UC over Miami...but c'mon. You get my point.

You need a specialist or two. And you need to recruit basketball players, especially at the point and wing positions. Maybe Justin Jennifer is that guy for Mick. He got Cash Wright. I'm not discounting the notion that Mick is trying to find good PGs. I am questioning his decisions to find SKILLED shooters and wings. I say 'decisions' rather than abilities because it feels like something philosophical. I'm sure guys like Shaq Thomas are human highlight reels on the HS level, and guys like KJ are physically superior when they're playing at Cincinnati Country Day. But at some point, isn't their skill level just as important as their physical abilities?

Huggins finally had an epiphany when he had seen his 3rd or 4th flashy, muscular point guard dribble the ball off his foot for the 300th time and offered a kid from Cleveland who was dying to come to UC but up until that point had been virtually ignored by Huggins. That kid did not fit the Bearcat template from a physical standpoint but had skill and will. That turned out fine, don't you think?

We'll have to give him another year with the guys he has coming in, but fellas it's going to be nearly impossible to sit through another year of watching guys pass the ball around aimlessly, and clank 6 footers. World class athletic ability with an NAIA skill set won't cut it anymore. When you play your crosstown rival AT HOME, shoot 17 more shots, turn it over 9 less times, outscore them 42-16 in the paint, hold them to 5 fast break points, out rebound them overall, and LOSE? Fellas, that's not a cause for optimism. That tells you all you need to know about the skill level of your team.

They played hard last night, and I appreciate it. They outplayed Xavier for most of the night, and by a wide margin in the 2nd half. The fact that they trailed a middling team for 33 of 40 minutes while playing that hard and dominating an entire half like they did is frightening. They held one of the best offensive teams in the country (by the numbers anyway) to 17 points below their average and to a 17 point 2nd half (until the final minute) AND STILL LOST. Xavier had one thing: the ability to hit shots. That one factor trumped every other thing UC crushed them at.

I suppose we should be thanking Xavier today, because if that game didn't elucidate exactly the type of player that's needed and alter Mick's philosophy, then nothing will. All the rebounding, defense and effort in the world will not replace the ability to put ball in basket.

Great post! I agree 100% with everything you've said. You have to have guys that can shoot or you don't have lanes to slash or room to post. You need long range shooters and you need guys that shoot mid-range. Btw, that chubby kid from Cleveland wouldn't have been a Bearcat wihout Mick Cronin pushing him to Huggs. That said, I agree, the recruiting philosophy has to change.

 

[indydoug]

I'm going to echo some things that Jeff and others have said...and let me preface this by saying that I'm as down and discouraged as I've ever been about the program. Count me in the group of people that considers this game more of a nuisance than something to celebrate...but there is no justification or acceptable reason for what has happened in this game for the past 2 decades. None. The good fortune that seems to follow Xavier like a lovesick puppy into ever Shootout brings into question the existence of God. Or at the very least, God's love for the University of Cincinnati. He still must be miffed that we hired the AntiChrist (Zimpher) for a short period.

You have to recruit scorers/shooters. PERIOD. And you can't tell me that there isn't some long range bomber out there that would love to play for UC. There's a senior at Miami named Will Sullivan that's hitting 47% of his 3's this year (taking 3-4 per game), played at York HS in Illinois and was a state All-Star (so he wasn't unknown)...and by the way, was Miami's defensive player of the year last season. Found him on the first website I went to, Lord knows how many more guys are out there like this. Not saying this specific kid would have chose UC over Miami...but c'mon. You get my point.

You need a specialist or two. And you need to recruit basketball players, especially at the point and wing positions. Maybe Justin Jennifer is that guy for Mick. He got Cash Wright. I'm not discounting the notion that Mick is trying to find good PGs. I am questioning his decisions to find SKILLED shooters and wings. I say 'decisions' rather than abilities because it feels like something philosophical. I'm sure guys like Shaq Thomas are human highlight reels on the HS level, and guys like KJ are physically superior when they're playing at Cincinnati Country Day. But at some point, isn't their skill level just as important as their physical abilities?

Huggins finally had an epiphany when he had seen his 3rd or 4th flashy, muscular point guard dribble the ball off his foot for the 300th time and offered a kid from Cleveland who was dying to come to UC but up until that point had been virtually ignored by Huggins. That kid did not fit the Bearcat template from a physical standpoint but had skill and will. That turned out fine, don't you think?

We'll have to give him another year with the guys he has coming in, but fellas it's going to be nearly impossible to sit through another year of watching guys pass the ball around aimlessly, and clank 6 footers. World class athletic ability with an NAIA skill set won't cut it anymore. When you play your crosstown rival AT HOME, shoot 17 more shots, turn it over 9 less times, outscore them 42-16 in the paint, hold them to 5 fast break points, out rebound them overall, and LOSE? Fellas, that's not a cause for optimism. That tells you all you need to know about the skill level of your team.

They played hard last night, and I appreciate it. They outplayed Xavier for most of the night, and by a wide margin in the 2nd half. The fact that they trailed a middling team for 33 of 40 minutes while playing that hard and dominating an entire half like they did is frightening. They held one of the best offensive teams in the country (by the numbers anyway) to 17 points below their average and to a 17 point 2nd half (until the final minute) AND STILL LOST. Xavier had one thing: the ability to hit shots. That one factor trumped every other thing UC crushed them at.

I suppose we should be thanking Xavier today, because if that game didn't elucidate exactly the type of player that's needed and alter Mick's philosophy, then nothing will. All the rebounding, defense and effort in the world will not replace the ability to put ball in basket.

You almost lost me on God And Nancy C. But great points

 

[TheLongHaul]

Jacob-Less competition for entertainment dollars.

Regarding WVU, with the exception of Staten, they are young too. Play in the best conference. Also, they play a high possession style on purpose, which reduces FGP. They are #14 in possessions per game. We are #338. VA is low possession too, so yes, you can win both ways.

Is UC really #338? If so, that's absurd. Stats like these better end this year.

 

[bearcat jeff]

You almost lost me on God And Nancy C. But great points

She is to UC basketball what Yoko was to the Beatles

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Jacob-Less competition for entertainment dollars.

Regarding WVU, with the exception of Staten, they are young too. Play in the best conference. Also, they play a high possession style on purpose, which reduces FGP. They are #14 in possessions per game. We are #338. VA is low possession too, so yes, you can win both ways.

I want the high possession style here. What we currently do offensively makes no sense.