Xavier

[JackBauer151]

Xavier has gone through their share of coaches as well. Not saying they're better at all. But that's a factor if UC rebuilding mid 2000s is.

I disagree. Their coaches left and the top assistant took over with the exception of Matta (Who has gone on to be a top coach in the country by the way). Recruiting did not suffer. Continuity did not suffer. Systems were not changed. Obviously Miller is much better than Mack but comparing what UC went through to XU coaching changes is a very big apple to a very small orange in the landscape.

 

[bearcat jeff]

I want the high possession style here. What we currently do offensively makes no sense.

It's my one complaint and the one thing that keeps us from the next level.

 

[Doogle]

It's my one complaint and the one thing that keeps us from the next level.

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

I'm sorry, and I respect your guys' opinions...but if you think our struggles are mostly on the players and not mostly on the system, you're nuts. These guys are all pretty highly rated, they didn't all just come here and flop. Our system is all wrong for these players. If you don't think so, then you didn't watch the game last night. There were 2 UC teams out there. One that got up and down the floor and had guys that could actually pass it to our guys in the post. And one that took the air out of the ball and is the sole reason why we failed, yet again, to score 60 points. There's nothing wrong with recruiting the Shaq Thomas, Morman, Ellis, Cobb, Scott, Evans types. But if you do recruit them, you A. Can't have them on the bench no matter what for guys who give you nothing, and B. You can't run a slow Virginia style when you know for a fact that the players you have aren't built for it. I mean there was a possession where Troy was going 1 MPH up the floor and Shaq was literally hopping up and down just dying to get the play going. With the athletes we have, we're going to be able to get defensive stops no matter what offensive style we play. But if we walk it up the floor, we're going to get scored on more than we are able to score against any halfway decent team. Period. These are the guys we have. For better or for worse. And the guys coming in next year are more of the same. I'm more than OK with that. But you HAVE to play a style that suits your players. To say we need a complete roster overhaul is not feasible, nor is it necessary.

 

[waterhead]

+/- w/ minutes

Cobb +10 (26 minutes)
Morman +7 (6)
Shaq +5 (25)
Ellis +2 (29)
DeBerry -2 (10)
Clark -6 (36)
Caupain -7 (35)
Sanders -10 (19)
Johnson -12 (14)

for the year I was able to gather data for about 18 games on Statsheet

Ellis +120
Clark +89
Caupain +79
Sanders +54
Cobb +48
Thomas +36
Morman +33
Johnson +22
DeBerry -35

Ellis, Clark, Johnson and Caupain have started and played with each other all year. Deberry and Morman have not started and Cobb has started 1 time. Cobb has only started the second half three times. Thomas and Sanders have now shared about equal time starting and minutes.

Clearly Johnson still has low numbers even though he has played a lot of minutes with the starters so his numbers SHOULD be inflated. The fact that Cobb has higher numbers while not playing with the starters is an even GREATER indicator that he needs to be out there.

Thomas and Sanders are interchangeable depending on the situation but Morman has pretty good numbers (since they have come as a non starter) . I wouldn't mind seeing him steal some minutes from KJ, JS, and ST. Cobb needs 30 minutes. DeBerry clearly is not as effective as Ellis or Clark. Could be defense or rebounding, or boxing out etc. He's a good scorer though and good for a breather.

 

[JackBauer151]

We'll have to give him another year with the guys he has coming in, but fellas it's going to be nearly impossible to sit through another year of watching guys pass the ball around aimlessly, and clank 6 footers. World class athletic ability with an NAIA skill set won't cut it anymore. When you play your crosstown rival AT HOME, shoot 17 more shots, turn it over 9 less times, outscore them 42-16 in the paint, hold them to 5 fast break points, out rebound them overall, and LOSE? Fellas, that's not a cause for optimism. That tells you all you need to know about the skill level of your team.

They played hard last night, and I appreciate it. They outplayed Xavier for most of the night, and by a wide margin in the 2nd half. The fact that they trailed a middling team for 33 of 40 minutes while playing that hard and dominating an entire half like they did is frightening. They held one of the best offensive teams in the country (by the numbers anyway) to 17 points below their average and to a 17 point 2nd half (until the final minute) AND STILL LOST. Xavier had one thing: the ability to hit shots. That one factor trumped every other thing UC crushed them at.

Could not agree more. Was just about to post those stats. ALSO HELD THEM TO ONE DAMN FIELD GOAL THE LAST 8 MINUTES!!! With those statistics and for us to lose that has to be a wake up call for Mick. Jeff mentioned it in another thread and so did Jacob. Things have to be tweaked from recruiting to system. You can still have defense and rebounding as a bedrock and have them be the reason you win. However we will always have close games when we should blow people out. That allows for losses in games you shouldnt lose. Has to be a change in recruiting philosophy and how those players are implemented in the system.

 

[indydoug]

She is to UC basketball what Yoko was to the Beatles

LOL!! True though

 

[indydoug]

She is to UC basketball what Yoko was to the Beatles

It's my one complaint and the one thing that keeps us from the next level.

Agreed. I don't understand recruiting athletes over basketball players and then running the #338 ranked offensive tempo. If that's the case recruit Creighton- like players. We aren't skilled enough to play a 1/2 court offense.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

for the year I was able to gather data for about 18 games on Statsheet

Ellis +120
Clark +89
Caupain +79
Sanders +54
Cobb +48
Thomas +36
Morman +33
Johnson +22
DeBerry -35

Ellis, Clark, Johnson and Caupain have started and played with each other all year. Deberry and Morman have not started and Cobb has started 1 time. Cobb has only started the second half three times. Thomas and Sanders have now shared about equal time starting and minutes.

Clearly Johnson still has low numbers even though he has played a lot of minutes with the starters so his numbers SHOULD be inflated. The fact that Cobb has higher numbers while not playing with the starters is an even GREATER indicator that he needs to be out there.

Thomas and Sanders are interchangeable depending on the situation but Morman has pretty good numbers (since they have come as a non starter) . I wouldn't mind seeing him steal some minutes from KJ, JS, and ST. Cobb needs 30 minutes. DeBerry clearly is not as effective as Ellis or Clark. Could be defense or rebounding, or boxing out etc. He's a good scorer though and good for a breather.

If KJ starts, Morman doesn't get 20 minutes, and Troy walks it up the floor more than 1 time in a row, I don't think I'll be able to watch the Houston game this weekend.

 

[waterhead]

for the year I was able to gather data for about 18 games on Statsheet

Ellis +120
Clark +89
Caupain +79
Sanders +54
Cobb +48
Thomas +36
Morman +33
Johnson +22
DeBerry -35

Ellis, Clark, Johnson and Caupain have started and played with each other all year. Deberry and Morman have not started and Cobb has started 1 time. Cobb has only started the second half three times. Thomas and Sanders have now shared about equal time starting and minutes.

Clearly Johnson still has low numbers even though he has played a lot of minutes with the starters so his numbers SHOULD be inflated. The fact that Cobb has higher numbers while not playing with the starters is an even GREATER indicator that he needs to be out there.

Thomas and Sanders are interchangeable depending on the situation but Morman has pretty good numbers (since they have come as a non starter) . I wouldn't mind seeing him steal some minutes from KJ, JS, and ST. Cobb needs 30 minutes. DeBerry clearly is not as effective as Ellis or Clark. Could be defense or rebounding, or boxing out etc. He's a good scorer though and good for a breather.

It looks like playing with the starters is about a 40 point bump on average over the second team. If I take away 40 from those who always start and take away 20 from ST and JS for splitting the starting here is how it looks (roughly).

Ellis 80
Clark 50
Cobb 48
Caupain 40
Sanders 34
Morman 33
Thomas 16
Johnson -22
DeBerry -35


I know this is a crude example but I am just trying to show some perspective and this perspective seems to lineup with what a lot of people are saying. Give us more Cobb and Morman!

 

[Bearcat04]

I'm sorry, and I respect your guys' opinions...but if you think our struggles are mostly on the players and not mostly on the system, you're nuts. These guys are all pretty highly rated, they didn't all just come here and flop. Our system is all wrong for these players. If you don't think so, then you didn't watch the game last night. There were 2 UC teams out there. One that got up and down the floor and had guys that could actually pass it to our guys in the post. And one that took the air out of the ball and is the sole reason why we failed, yet again, to score 60 points. There's nothing wrong with recruiting the Shaq Thomas, Morman, Ellis, Cobb, Scott, Evans types. But if you do recruit them, you A. Can't have them on the bench no matter what for guys who give you nothing, and B. You can't run a slow Virginia style when you know for a fact that the players you have aren't built for it. I mean there was a possession where Troy was going 1 MPH up the floor and Shaq was literally hopping up and down just dying to get the play going. With the athletes we have, we're going to be able to get defensive stops no matter what offensive style we play. But if we walk it up the floor, we're going to get scored on more than we are able to score against any halfway decent team. Period. These are the guys we have. For better or for worse. And the guys coming in next year are more of the same. I'm more than OK with that. But you HAVE to play a style that suits your players. To say we need a complete roster overhaul is not feasible, nor is it necessary.

I don't think we've ever had the guards to play uptempo effectively. We are always complaining how bad they are on the break, so more of that without the right pieces might not be the best path to victory. Having said that, there's no reason to play this slow. I still contend that passing is the biggest weakness of this program right now. With better passing comes more open, high-percentage shots and a lot fewer games in the 50's.

 

[cincrulz11]

Could you imagine this team being more up-tempo with our turnover rate? We'd average 25 TO's a game.



Up-tempo with the 300th ranked turnover rate in the country seems like a disaster as well.




I think there has been an uptick in recruited as well as a change in philosophy. Cobb, DeBerry, Moore, Clark, Jenifer, Evans. Those guys were all brought in for offense. It just sucks that it isn't a snap your fingers process.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Could you imagine this team being more up-tempo with our turnover rate? We'd average 25 TO's a game.



Up-tempo with the 300th ranked turnover rate in the country seems like a disaster as well.




I think there has been an uptick in recruited as well as a change in philosophy. Cobb, DeBerry, Moore, Clark, Jenifer, Evans. Those guys were all brought in for offense. It just sucks that it isn't a snap your fingers process.

Our turnovers are coming in the halfcourt though. Johnson is a killer for our turnover rate. And he is in when we run slow tempo. Turnovers are also coming from our bigs trying to do too much in the half court. Speeding up the pace with Morman, Cobb and Shaq doesn't necessarily mean that the rate stays the same as it does when KJ is throwing terrible passes in halfcourt sets. I mean, maybe we speed things up and turn it over 30 times...But I highly doubt that will be the case, and what do we have to lose at this point? The sh!t we're doing isn't working.

 

[bearcat jeff]

I'm sorry, and I respect your guys' opinions...but if you think our struggles are mostly on the players and not mostly on the system, you're nuts. These guys are all pretty highly rated, they didn't all just come here and flop. Our system is all wrong for these players. If you don't think so, then you didn't watch the game last night. There were 2 UC teams out there. One that got up and down the floor and had guys that could actually pass it to our guys in the post. And one that took the air out of the ball and is the sole reason why we failed, yet again, to score 60 points. There's nothing wrong with recruiting the Shaq Thomas, Morman, Ellis, Cobb, Scott, Evans types. But if you do recruit them, you A. Can't have them on the bench no matter what for guys who give you nothing, and B. You can't run a slow Virginia style when you know for a fact that the players you have aren't built for it. I mean there was a possession where Troy was going 1 MPH up the floor and Shaq was literally hopping up and down just dying to get the play going. With the athletes we have, we're going to be able to get defensive stops no matter what offensive style we play. But if we walk it up the floor, we're going to get scored on more than we are able to score against any halfway decent team. Period. These are the guys we have. For better or for worse. And the guys coming in next year are more of the same. I'm more than OK with that. But you HAVE to play a style that suits your players. To say we need a complete roster overhaul is not feasible, nor is it necessary.

I do believe the system plays a part, but to be fair I have seen the system get guys open looks repeatedly and them miss the shot. I don't think this staff teaches offensive fundamentals well. Ball movement, screening, cuts, etc.

 

[TheLongHaul]

Could you imagine this team being more up-tempo with our turnover rate? We'd average 25 TO's a game.



Up-tempo with the 300th ranked turnover rate in the country seems like a disaster as well.




I think there has been an uptick in recruited as well as a change in philosophy. Cobb, DeBerry, Moore, Clark, Jenifer, Evans. Those guys were all brought in for offense. It just sucks that it isn't a snap your fingers process.

Rarely do UC's turnovers come from pushing the ball. Turnovers can increase when you play uptempo but they can help out as well. This team turns the ball over because they aren't great passers and have trouble dribbling in tight spaces. Up tempo alleviates that by spreading the floor and spreading the defense.

 

[TheLongHaul]

I do believe the system plays a part, but to be fair I have seen the system get guys open looks repeatedly and them miss the shot. I don't think this staff teaches offensive fundamentals well. Ball movement, screening, cuts, etc.

I agree with this. Never have I seen teams so consistently bad at using ball screens than I have with Mick at the helm. Which is weird because I would expect Mick to be a fundamentalist. It's tough to say how much is system and how much is players. Probably a lot of both.

 

[cincrulz11]

Our turnovers are coming in the halfcourt though. Johnson is a killer for our turnover rate. And he is in when we run slow tempo. Turnovers are also coming from our bigs trying to do too much in the half court. Speeding up the pace with Morman, Cobb and Shaq doesn't necessarily mean that the rate stays the same as it does when KJ is throwing terrible passes in halfcourt sets. I mean, maybe we speed things up and turn it over 30 times...But I highly doubt that will be the case, and what do we have to lose at this point? The sh!t we're doing isn't working.

The guys turn the ball over at a high rate because they aren't good at holding on to the ball. To blame that mostly on running a half court offense seems silly to me.


Stuff isn't working lately because the players are playing bad. The team is going through a rough stretch. We didn't come back last night because we completely changed our philosophy. We came back because we ran an efficient offense and the guys played better.



There should be a 24-hour non posting rule for each game we lose in a row. People freak the heck out when things are going poorly.

 

[cincrulz11]

Rarely do UC's turnovers come from pushing the ball. Turnovers can increase when you play uptempo but they can help out as well. This team turns the ball over because they aren't great passers and have trouble dribbling in tight spaces. Up tempo alleviates that by spreading the floor and spreading the defense.

I don't know man, we want to go up tempo with guards that can't pass and bigs that can't use their feet when trying to make moves around the rim.

 

[JackBauer151]

The guys turn the ball over at a high rate because they aren't good at holding on to the ball. To blame that mostly on running a half court offense seems silly to me.


Stuff isn't working lately because the players are playing bad. The team is going through a rough stretch. We didn't come back last night because we completely changed our philosophy. We came back because we ran an efficient offense and the guys played better.



There should be a 24-hour non posting rule for each game we lose in a row. People freak the heck out when things are going poorly.

That's definitely true of every fan base. However there is enough data to backup the claim things are not nearly as bad as some make them out to be after an emotional loss. But we do have enough data on the other side that suggests some things need work. Im just hoping Mick's GM analytical role serves as a springboard to those changes that are needed.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

I do believe the system plays a part, but to be fair I have seen the system get guys open looks repeatedly and them miss the shot. I don't think this staff teaches offensive fundamentals well. Ball movement, screening, cuts, etc.

We have to open up the court. Whoever has the ball has to move towards the hoop at all times. Even on defensive rebounds. Standing there waiting for everything to clear out is what my 4th grade Cheviot Fire team did. We've seen Clark go the length of the floor a million times. He should be allowed to dribble on EVERY defensive rebound. He doesn't have to become the PG or take it all the way...but just get it moving, find the outlet pass, USE the athleticism on the team. This is why I've been screaming for Morman. He wants to push the pace. One guy standing and holding the ball for 2 seconds can be the difference between whether we score on that possession or not. Even if holding the ball doesnt happen in the halfcourt offense, but right from the rebound. Transition, transition, transition. We can find points this way, and we need all the points we can get.


Side note: How sweet was that spin and dunk by Shaq last night? I leaped out of my seat.