2016 General Recruiting

[the_one_32]

Here's where the problem lies. Mick still believes he can reel in the top recruits like he did for Pitino and Huggins. What he doesn't realize is the landscape of college basketball has changed. Let's all be honest with ourselves here. I'd say the top 50 players in the country have eyes set on being a one and done player. They will gravitate to the programs who have shown success doing that for other recruits. Winning a championship, helping build a great program and maybe even making the NCAA tournament isn't all that important to some. I can almost say with certainty that going to a program where the coach seems very hesitant to trust freshman recruits isn't high on their priority list. Look at how much time Mick has wasted on chasing top flight guys with no real chance to get a commitment from them. Mick needs to focus on the top 50-150 range and I'm sure he will find more successes in recruiting. It sucks to say all of that because every fan of every team thinks their program should be a destination spot. However, right now the reality is we are in a weak conference, in an old arena and no real recent history of great one and done players or deep runs in the tourney. Mick needs to sell the top 50-150 on the fact that they are a couple really good players away from getting to an elite eight or final four then you never know what may happen. Until that happens, we are going to get one really good guy, 2 projects and schollys rolling over to the following season.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

Waite we didn't have Broome when Bowman committed to BC. And we have rotation minutes available from day 1 on a team that has made the tournament 6 straight years. I think you're overrating the idea that every recruit HAS to be a starter from day 1. We dont even know if Cumberland will start over a guy like Kevin Johnson...so how in the world did we get a recruit like that to commit???

Jake I lived through the recruiting process twice. I think I have a very good understanding of what the kids are looking for. I think you are underrating. Cumberland and his people have a excellent idea of what his capabilities are and how he matches up for playing time with KJ. He knows he will see the floor and if he plays to HIS capabilities could very well be a starter at years end. He is also from right up the road. If you don't think starter minutes isn't a KEY factor in where talented kids go I really can't help you. The first thing a kid wants to know is who is playing my spot now and when will he be leaving.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

Who cares about it being "the right player" if its a grad transfer he is here for one year and his scholarship is open to be used again just like it would be if we pocketed it. I get not wanting to grab the wrong guys if they are going to be here for multiple years, but at least by using the scholarship on grad transfers you give us a shot at 2 people surprising us and contributing. If they dont, who cares they are here for a year and sit the bench, are bodies in practice, and worst case scenario if people get hurt. It could actually do us good to grab 2 small school transfers who can shoot and have high basketball IQ who are a little less athletic, someone who maybe isnt the "right player" that we would normally recruit. Its not like we are winning championships every year and have a roster full of the "right players" Sprinkling a couple of them in with what we usually recruit and it might end up being the missing piece. But not using scholarships makes absolutely no sense at all when there are grad transfer options to at least give you a chance to maybe get a surprise here and there.

And im so sick of the excuses about recruiting our campus is insane. One of the best in the country. Every kid wants to go to the NCAA tournament. Not many programs have gone to the tournament 6 years in a row. We have a salesman issue if you ask me. It should be the easiest sell to grab a grad transfer bc those are the kids that want to go to the tourney. We pocket scholarships every year and it does absolutely nothing for us. Give some kids a shot for a year.

Have no problem getting a grad transfer to come for a year. Still has to be the right body. It could still happen.

 

[#BearcatNation]

Here's where the problem lies. Mick still believes he can reel in the top recruits like he did for Pitino and Huggins. What he doesn't realize is the landscape of college basketball has changed. Let's all be honest with ourselves here. I'd say the top 50 players in the country have eyes set on being a one and done player. They will gravitate to the programs who have shown success doing that for other recruits. Winning a championship, helping build a great program and maybe even making the NCAA tournament isn't all that important to some. I can almost say with certainty that going to a program where the coach seems very hesitant to trust freshman recruits isn't high on their priority list. Look at how much time Mick has wasted on chasing top flight guys with no real chance to get a commitment from them. Mick needs to focus on the top 50-150 range and I'm sure he will find more successes in recruiting. It sucks to say all of that because every fan of every team thinks their program should be a destination spot. However, right now the reality is we are in a weak conference, in an old arena and no real recent history of great one and done players or deep runs in the tourney. Mick needs to sell the top 50-150 on the fact that they are a couple really good players away from getting to an elite eight or final four then you never know what may happen. Until that happens, we are going to get one really good guy, 2 projects and schollys rolling over to the following season.

Not to sound snarky, but are there any inside sources here? It sounds like you're heavily involved with comments like this. I'm also a little confused because you're making it sound like rankings don't change over time. Mick was all over Malik Beasley when he was a 3-star junior. He was actually crystal-balled to UC. Of course Malik then began shooting up the charts, ending up a top 30 player and forgot all about UC. When is Mick supposed to let Malik go in this scenario? I think he stopped once we wen't in his Final 8, which seems like the right move, but I dunno.

Recruiting is so hard to speculate, so I have a difficult time hating on a coaching staff. We don't know every move they're making, or how hard they're out there trying, and that's okay. Some will read this post as defending Mick and Co. when really that's not true -- I hate how recruiting has been since last summer. My only point is, why are we allowed to tell our staff how it's done? It's one thing to be disappointed, but it's another to say specifically what they're doing wrong, and act as if you know a simply solution. I think if they knew the answer, they'd be doing that. Us forum posters are not smarter than they are.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

Here's where the problem lies. Mick still believes he can reel in the top recruits like he did for Pitino and Huggins. What he doesn't realize is the landscape of college basketball has changed. Let's all be honest with ourselves here. I'd say the top 50 players in the country have eyes set on being a one and done player. They will gravitate to the programs who have shown success doing that for other recruits. Winning a championship, helping build a great program and maybe even making the NCAA tournament isn't all that important to some. I can almost say with certainty that going to a program where the coach seems very hesitant to trust freshman recruits isn't high on their priority list. Look at how much time Mick has wasted on chasing top flight guys with no real chance to get a commitment from them. Mick needs to focus on the top 50-150 range and I'm sure he will find more successes in recruiting. It sucks to say all of that because every fan of every team thinks their program should be a destination spot. However, right now the reality is we are in a weak conference, in an old arena and no real recent history of great one and done players or deep runs in the tourney. Mick needs to sell the top 50-150 on the fact that they are a couple really good players away from getting to an elite eight or final four then you never know what may happen. Until that happens, we are going to get one really good guy, 2 projects and schollys rolling over to the following season.

That is what Mick is doing. The problem is those kids stay 4 years with little turn over. They also don't make the league at the rate of the one and doners. I always laugh when people say mick is a bad recruiter. He can't be to bad, he has made the dance 6 years running and i'll bet it grows to at least 8. Is he such a good coach that he can do what many can't with bad recruits?? Does he do this by being a bad coach??? Are we saying he could do better if he could land better kids??? Yes, the landscape has changed in the last 10-15 years. Our situation has changed. He does a very good job in todays market. . As college athletics are configured now I don't know if we can do any better. That is why we spent all the money on the football program. To try to get a seat at the big table. Its why we changed apparel affiliates. This isn't the same game as it was 10m years ago. Could Mick help himself a bit more. Sure!!! But to paint him as some do on here as incompetent that needs to be replaced is laughable. In my opinion that would be a tremendous roll of the dice. I'm not saying I wouldn't support replacing him but as we are configured now I do not see any such grounds. If the only argument is we are not the program we were under Huggins I would not change. The game isn't the same as it was under Huggins. We also have to graduate our players and they must avoid run ins with the police. Mick is also required to stay sober while behind the wheel of a car. Lets finish the rebuild that is under way in the athletic department. Lets get the facilities and see how league affiliation plays out. Honestly I don't think we have much choice because the BOT is not going to remove him. You may find this odd but they think he does a good job. After all they pay him 2.3 mil a year.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Jake I lived through the recruiting process twice. I think I have a very good understanding of what the kids are looking for. I think you are underrating. Cumberland and his people have a excellent idea of what his capabilities are and how he matches up for playing time with KJ. He knows he will see the floor and if he plays to HIS capabilities could very well be a starter at years end. He is also from right up the road. If you don't think starter minutes isn't a KEY factor in where talented kids go I really can't help you. The first thing a kid wants to know is who is playing my spot now and when will he be leaving.

Why would a kid still available in late May be in the position to demand being a starter on a tournament team? Tournament teams don't typically leave the roster open enough for that unless they consistently get one and dones. That's why they're tournament teams. We got Cumberland, who is a Top 50 player, to commit a year in advance without a guarantee to be a starter...and you're trying to tell me that lesser caliber recruits who are uncommitted a year later in the process are making those kinds of demands? If that's the case, then they are very unrealistic. And if that's the case, why did we carry 3 open scholarships into the spring?

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

Why would a kid still available in late May be in the position to demand being a starter on a tournament team? Tournament teams don't typically leave the roster open enough for that unless they consistently get one and dones. That's why they're tournament teams. We got Cumberland, who is a Top 50 player, to commit a year in advance without a guarantee to be a starter...and you're trying to tell me that lesser caliber recruits who are uncommitted a year later in the process are making those kinds of demands? If that's the case, then they are very unrealistic. And if that's the case, why did we carry 3 open scholarships into the spring?

as I pointed out Cumberland is local and he knows exactly what he has to do and my feeling is he is certain he can do it. Others that are available are broken down to who can help us, who we are recruiting against, how much playing time and other factors. Mick is not going to give his last two spots away just to fill the spots. It takes two to make a deal.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

as I pointed out Cumberland is local and he knows exactly what he has to do and my feeling is he is certain he can do it. Others that are available are broken down to who can help us, who we are recruiting against, how much playing time and other factors. Mick is not going to give his last two spots away just to fill the spots. It takes two to make a deal.

Sounds like we should be taking any HS commitment we can get (and even good jucos) in the summer and fall, instead of putting multiple eggs in the spring crapshoot basket. A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush!

 

[rogerOH]

I would like to see Cronin take at least one tri -state kid that goes to one of the bigger high schools. Maybe a 6'6 or 6'7 skinny kid or an athletic kid that played a lot of sports. You might make some inroads to some of these schools when they get a real player.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

Sounds like we should be taking any HS commitment we can get (and even good jucos) in the summer and fall, instead of putting multiple eggs in the spring crapshoot basket. A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush!

Now waite a minute which is it? He doesn't recruit well enough or he needs to take whoever he gets? Mick could still add a player or two. He obviously hasn't found what he considers the right fit. Jake do you really believe that he would not bring someone in who wanted to come especially if he thought they could help the team just to save two schoolys?

 

[#BearcatNation]

Now waite a minute which is it? He doesn't recruit well enough or he needs to take whoever he gets? Mick could still add a player or two. He obviously hasn't found what he considers the right fit. Jake do you really believe that he would not bring someone in who wanted to come especially if he thought they could help the team just to save two schoolys?

I think he has found the right fit a few times...they just didn't choose UC.

 

[Bearcat22]

Now waite a minute which is it? He doesn't recruit well enough or he needs to take whoever he gets? Mick could still add a player or two. He obviously hasn't found what he considers the right fit. Jake do you really believe that he would not bring someone in who wanted to come especially if he thought they could help the team just to save two schoolys?

Part of the problem is that this year's Sr. class would have included Morman, Strickland, and Lawrence. As the recruiting classes fall apart (for a variety of reasons) there's holes to plug that as we're seeing are hard to fill. This year's recruiting class doesn't have the juco help like a Cobb & Ellis provided.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

I think he has found the right fit a few times...they just didn't choose UC.

it happens

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

Part of the problem is that this year's Sr. class would have included Morman, Strickland, and Lawrence. As the recruiting classes fall apart (for a variety of reasons) there's holes to plug that as we're seeing are hard to fill. This year's recruiting class doesn't have the juco help like a Cobb & Ellis provided.

They could still add a piece.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Now waite a minute which is it? He doesn't recruit well enough or he needs to take whoever he gets? Mick could still add a player or two. He obviously hasn't found what he considers the right fit. Jake do you really believe that he would not bring someone in who wanted to come especially if he thought they could help the team just to save two schoolys?

Waite, all I'm saying really is that you make our situation seem so dire.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

Waite, all I'm saying really is that you make our situation seem so dire.

Don't think it's dire but it isn't a cake walk either. If it was everybody would have a great program. Jake succeeding in today's college athletics is very tough. The outside influences, the apparel companies,handlers and networks are all obstacles. Not to mention the academic qualifications that are enforced differently at just about every university. Everyone has their hand out. Trying to navigate through this mess is a huge challenge. Our coach does it well. Can he be better? I hope so. But lots of things need to happen. Just a example. At Kentucky do you think education plays a part in their process. Calipari has to get most of their players through admissions and at most one semester. If you want to say Mick could do more with what he has to work with your certainly entitled to your opinion. Personally since day 1 I think he has overachieved. I would guess the BOT agrees because he is still here with a very good compensation package.

 

[the_one_32]

Not to sound snarky, but are there any inside sources here? It sounds like you're heavily involved with comments like this. I'm also a little confused because you're making it sound like rankings don't change over time. Mick was all over Malik Beasley when he was a 3-star junior. He was actually crystal-balled to UC. Of course Malik then began shooting up the charts, ending up a top 30 player and forgot all about UC. When is Mick supposed to let Malik go in this scenario? I think he stopped once we wen't in his Final 8, which seems like the right move, but I dunno.

Recruiting is so hard to speculate, so I have a difficult time hating on a coaching staff. We don't know every move they're making, or how hard they're out there trying, and that's okay. Some will read this post as defending Mick and Co. when really that's not true -- I hate how recruiting has been since last summer. My only point is, why are we allowed to tell our staff how it's done? It's one thing to be disappointed, but it's another to say specifically what they're doing wrong, and act as if you know a simply solution. I think if they knew the answer, they'd be doing that. Us forum posters are not smarter than they are.

As a forum poster, I'm giving my opinion on why Mick can't seem to finish a class off. I also don't remember saying I'm smarter than anyone. I understand recruiting rankings change, however the Malik Beasley comparison is a huge outlier. Usually you may see a 3 star move up to the 60-75 range if he moves up you rarely see a jump that high. All I was pointing out is Mick seems to be hard headed in who he recruits. Which is a good thing and a bad thing. A good thing because he's confident in this program and himself and wants the best for UC. A bad thing because he's up creek without a paddle when recruiting against the likes of Kansas, UK, Duke, Michigan State, UNC, etc.

No I don't currently have any sources and didn't take it as being snarky. I've been pretty open with the fact that my original two sources who were very accurate are no longer affiliated with the program. One of them was a member of the training staff who is now at MSJ. The other I can't really disclose what his position was but he took a promotion at a BIG 10 school. The source I used shortly thereafter was not a reliable as I was told he would be.

 

[BearcatSpaniard513]

Would you take a one and done PG, or a 3 star Troy Caupain that is going to contribute for 4 years and get us to the tourney each of those seasons? Honestly, I'd rather have the underrated Troy Caupain. I love watching guys like him come in underrated and leave like a Sean Kilpatrick or Justin Jackson. Mick is finding the diamonds in the rough and that has been his niche. Identifying talent early on and establishing the relationship. Nobody recruited Steve Logan. If we can consistently land players of Gary Clark's caliber year after year we'll see improvement.

We're not always going to have a top 5 recruiting class and I'm fine with that. That's reserved for Kentucky, Duke, Kansas, North Carolina, Arizona, etc. My thing is if a school like Xavier can consistently be in the top 25 for their recruiting classes, I think there's no reason we shouldn't be. They have consistently out recruited us this past decade and the results have been them beating us every year. And yes, I don't care what you say- losing to them hurts worse than losing some conference games.

 

[the_one_32]

Would you take a one and done PG, or a 3 star Troy Caupain that is going to contribute for 4 years and get us to the tourney each of those seasons? Honestly, I'd rather have the underrated Troy Caupain. I love watching guys like him come in underrated and leave like a Sean Kilpatrick or Justin Jackson. Mick is finding the diamonds in the rough and that has been his niche. Identifying talent early on and establishing the relationship. Nobody recruited Steve Logan. If we can consistently land players of Gary Clark's caliber year after year we'll see improvement.

We're not always going to have a top 5 recruiting class and I'm fine with that. That's reserved for Kentucky, Duke, Kansas, North Carolina, Arizona, etc. My thing is if a school like Xavier can consistently be in the top 25 for their recruiting classes, I think there's no reason we shouldn't be. They have consistently out recruited us this past decade and the results have been them beating us every year. I don't care what you say- losing to them hurts worse than losing some conference games.

I agree we should be able to recruit with Xavier, however it seems Xavier is willing to take chances on kids that Mick is not. Highly rated guys who have character issues or guys who've dropped in the rankings because of those issues. I don't often agree with Colin Cowherd but he's always said this and I agree, "when a program becomes great, there roster looks more and more sketchy when it comes to character". The sad thing about that is its pretty spot on accurate. Think of the truly great programs in college basketball and football and look at the off the field issues. The only program I can think that's avoided that is Duke. Lots of times the best players in the country in both sports come from the worst circumstances. It's the desperation of getting to a better place that makes them the player they are. However, sometimes they can't shed the life they've left and it gets them into trouble.

I also agree I'd take a Capuain for 4 years over a one and done PG. However when is the last time a team won the title without having an All American type player on their team. Capuain is very good, has a chance to play in the NBA, but he's not able to carry a team to a deep run or title. It's great to have players like Troy because they give your program stability and show you can develop players. With that being said, how much better would this team be with guys next to Troy who are highly rated and highly productive and not projects who may contribute 2-3 years down the road.

 

[BearcatSpaniard513]

I agree we should be able to recruit with Xavier, however it seems Xavier is willing to take chances on kids that Mick is not. Highly rated guys who have character issues or guys who've dropped in the rankings because of those issues. I don't often agree with Colin Cowherd but he's always said this and I agree, "when a program becomes great, there roster looks more and more sketchy when it comes to character". The sad thing about that is its pretty spot on accurate. Think of the truly great programs in college basketball and football and look at the off the field issues. The only program I can think that's avoided that is Duke. Lots of times the best players in the country in both sports come from the worst circumstances. It's the desperation of getting to a better place that makes them the player they are. However, sometimes they can't shed the life they've left and it gets them into trouble.

I also agree I'd take a Capuain for 4 years over a one and done PG. However when is the last time a team won the title without having an All American type player on their team. Capuain is very good, has a chance to play in the NBA, but he's not able to carry a team to a deep run or title. It's great to have players like Troy because they give your program stability and show you can develop players. With that being said, how much better would this team be with guys next to Troy who are highly rated and highly productive and not projects who may contribute 2-3 years down the road.

Exactly and that's what we're missing. If we had Nick Ward coming in this fall on top of our other recruits, how much better would everyone feel? Or a talented wing player to back up Evans. We are 1 or 2 pieces away from a complete recruiting class still. Hopefully we add another piece soon. I would love to get a JUCO or grad transfer that is going to immediately make an impact and can help us make a run. We need one more piece minimum to help contribute off the bench.