Crosstown Shootout Dec 6, 2020 Fifth Third Arena

[justinhub2003]

I’m not a Debbie downer on this team.

They will get better. But John has to find a way to get his teams better quicker.
At NKU, the non conference was literally not important to NKU’s success. They could use it to get better, and then work on the ultimate goal: winning the conference tourney


But at the high major level, we have to get better at a much faster rate. I mean weve had no program shutdowns and an extended practice time. We should be further along.

John has to learn to how to win early. Last non con was a disaster and this one could be as well.

Just need to be agile. When they go 13-13 from at the rim, maybe it’s time to try a zone to protect the paint.


Season has a lot of life let in it. But our chances dwindle if we don’t win out the non conference or something close to that.

What I never want to happen at UC is the normalizing of losing at home. And right now, brannen is not off to a great start in protecting home court

 

[cincrulz11]

Just need to be agile. When they go 13-13 from at the rim, maybe it’s time to try a zone to protect the paint.

I'm not really big on a 'we never do xyz strategy'. Stubbornness over something like isn't great. You can hate zone defense, but if you team needs it, you need to play it.

 

[justinhub2003]

I'm not really big on a 'we never do xyz strategy'. Stubbornness over something like isn't great. You can hate zone defense, but if you team needs it, you need to play it.

Mick Cronin was as stubborn as it comes. But man, I feel like John Brannen is every bit of stubborn as Mick and even more closed off from the media.


I feel like I have no idea what kind of culture and identity John’s program at UC embodies.

I think mick set the tone early in his career with being tough, gritty, & defensive.

But we need to see Brannen establish some kind of cultural identity at UC. Kelvin Sampson did it over at Houston and look at it now.


Hell, even Travis Steele, an offensive coach, spent his first 2 years recruiting athletic tough guys and rebuilding Xavier as a defense first time. Now he is adding the skill to that culture. They may flat out suck. But he at least has a vision that you can see.

It’s not over, it’s not even close. And the pressure to win that will bear on the shoulders of CJB will either make or break him. If it makes him, it charges him for the better. If it breaks him then will have a new coach in a few years. I want him to succeed, but man, I do question his decisions A lot.

 

[cincyguy13]

Mick Cronin was as stubborn as it comes. But man, I feel like John Brannen is every bit of stubborn as Mick and even more closed off from the media.


I feel like I have no idea what kind of culture and identity John’s program at UC embodies.

I think mick set the tone early in his career with being tough, gritty, & defensive.

But we need to see Brannen establish some kind of cultural identity at UC. Kelvin Sampson did it over at Houston and look at it now.


Hell, even Travis Steele, an offensive coach, spent his first 2 years recruiting athletic tough guys and rebuilding Xavier as a defense first time. Now he is adding the skill to that culture. They may flat out suck. But he at least has a vision that you can see.

It’s not over, it’s not even close. And the pressure to win that will bear on the shoulders of CJB will either make or break him. If it makes him, it charges him for the better. If it breaks him then will have a new coach in a few years. I want him to succeed, but man, I do question his decisions A lot.

They are all stubborn. Boeheim has been playing the same zone for 30 years. Coach K never plays zone. You are going to do what got you to this position. They all do what they are comfortable with.

The identity will come. He’s in the second year that also happen to be the oddest years ever. Keith isn’t his guy. Vogt we had to pick up, because we literally didn’t have anyone. The identity will come but needs to get his guys too. Most of his guys are freshmen and sophomores. We really didn’t know cronins team identity for years because they were so bad.

 

[cincyguy13]

I’m not a Debbie downer on this team.

They will get better. But John has to find a way to get his teams better quicker.
At NKU, the non conference was literally not important to NKU’s success. They could use it to get better, and then work on the ultimate goal: winning the conference tourney


But at the high major level, we have to get better at a much faster rate. I mean weve had no program shutdowns and an extended practice time. We should be further along.

John has to learn to how to win early. Last non con was a disaster and this one could be as well.

Just need to be agile. When they go 13-13 from at the rim, maybe it’s time to try a zone to protect the paint.


Season has a lot of life let in it. But our chances dwindle if we don’t win out the non conference or something close to that.

What I never want to happen at UC is the normalizing of losing at home. And right now, brannen is not off to a great start in protecting home court

Does home court count without fans? Honestly. The advantage is completely taken away without fans

 

[justinhub2003]

They are all stubborn. Boeheim has been playing the same zone for 30 years. Coach K never plays zone. You are going to do what got you to this position. They all do what they are comfortable with.

The identity will come. He’s in the second year that also happen to be the oddest years ever. Keith isn’t his guy. Vogt we had to pick up, because we literally didn’t have anyone. The identity will come but needs to get his guys too. Most of his guys are freshmen and sophomores. We really didn’t know cronins team identity for years because they were so bad.

Keith's not his guy, but the day he got on campus he said Keith Williams is the prototypical player in his system. That he wants guys like Keith Williams.

Our most talented recruit played all of 4 minutes. I have no idea why.

And I'm still a little puzzled on his 2021 recruiting class. He offered very few guys and we didn't land anyone. 2021 is going to monumental in building momentum in this class. We need high level players, not retreads from the mid majors.


The season isn't over, its just starting.. but my main point is.. WE HAVE TO GEL QUICKER. We aren't in a 1 bid league where the only thing that matters is the tourney.

 

[sedziobs]

My early season thoughts:

Rap is way slower than I thought he would be. If he is going to play with Vogt, we can't play extended man defense with full court ball pressure and blitzing ball screens. That doesn't work with zero help defense. And it's not just help at the rim - there's no hope for anyone to close out on a skip pass to a 3 pt shooter. With Rap and Vogt wearing cinder block shoes, it's gotta be pack line or zone.

Another problem with slow bigs is we have to abandon the offensive glass. Most of Xavier's fast break points happened when one of our guards was under the basket, which means that guard+Rap+Vogt have no chance of getting to the other end before three X players.

With poor shooting, I'd like to see us run more of a weave up top. We have plenty of guys who can penetrate this year. Get them moving side to side on the catch.

Saunders and Eason look ready to contribute. I'd like to see them, Harvey, and Davenport get more minutes. They're going to turn the ball over and foul a lot. I'll trade that for some extra quickness.

 

[justinhub2003]

I do believe, if we had fans we win this game.

 

[cincyguy13]

Keith's not his guy, but the day he got on campus he said Keith Williams is the prototypical player in his system. That he wants guys like Keith Williams.

Our most talented recruit played all of 4 minutes. I have no idea why.

And I'm still a little puzzled on his 2021 recruiting class. He offered very few guys and we didn't land anyone. 2021 is going to monumental in building momentum in this class. We need high level players, not retreads from the mid majors.


The season isn't over, its just starting.. but my main point is.. WE HAVE TO GEL QUICKER. We aren't in a 1 bid league where the only thing that matters is the tourney.

In relation to recruiting, pretty sure he said, not being able to see the guys play because COVID is why he isn’t offering many kids. Doesn’t want to miss and set the program back. Would rather wait.

 

[Queens_NYC]

In relation to recruiting, pretty sure he said, not being able to see the guys play because COVID is why he isn’t offering many kids. Doesn’t want to miss and set the program back. Would rather wait.

Seems like a pretty sorry excuse tbh.

 

[waterhead]

My early season thoughts:

Rap is way slower than I thought he would be. If he is going to play with Vogt, we can't play extended man defense with full court ball pressure and blitzing ball screens. That doesn't work with zero help defense. And it's not just help at the rim - there's no hope for anyone to close out on a skip pass to a 3 pt shooter. With Rap and Vogt wearing cinder block shoes, it's gotta be pack line or zone.

Another problem with slow bigs is we have to abandon the offensive glass. Most of Xavier's fast break points happened when one of our guards was under the basket, which means that guard+Rap+Vogt have no chance of getting to the other end before three X players.

With poor shooting, I'd like to see us run more of a weave up top. We have plenty of guys who can penetrate this year. Get them moving side to side on the catch.

Saunders and Eason look ready to contribute. I'd like to see them, Harvey, and Davenport get more minutes. They're going to turn the ball over and foul a lot. I'll trade that for some extra quickness.

Solid comments. I certainly like the weave idea. With all of these players we have...passing around the perimeter is not my favorite idea. David, Keith, MAW and Harvey can all attack off the bounce. I think Gabe is decent at it as well...and Eason too. Saunders is quick enough to cause problems. It makes sense with average to below average shooters.

 

[justinhub2003]

In relation to recruiting, pretty sure he said, not being able to see the guys play because COVID is why he isn’t offering many kids. Doesn’t want to miss and set the program back. Would rather wait.

He offered a few kids he didn’t see. And they just said no.

Every other program is in the same boat so it’s not a disadvantage. Mick Cronin is not a great recruiter and has 3 top 50 recruits in 2021

Michigan has 5 4 & 5 stars signed.
Florida state has number 2 class
Crieghton has 3 4 stars

It’s not like we are operating under a different set of rules as every one else.

We are one of three schools who don’t have a commit in our league.

It’s not like our roster is beaming with talent and we don’t need anyone.

 

[waterhead]

He offered a few kids he didn’t see. And they just said no.

Every other program is in the same boat so it’s not a disadvantage. Mick Cronin is not a great recruiter and has 3 top 50 recruits in 2021

Michigan has 5 4 & 5 stars signed.
Florida state has number 2 class
Crieghton has 3 4 stars

It’s not like we are operating under a different set of rules as every one else.

We are one of three schools who don’t have a commit in our league.

It’s not like our roster is beaming with talent and we don’t need anyone.

It's not like he went after anyone heavy and missed. He wants the right player and program guys with the right attitude. He could not judge all of that without sitting down in front of them. Some coaches said...I don't care about all of that I am going to take some shots win or lose.

CJB was measured in his approach. It's likely going to hurt a little and help a little. It's not what we would all like but it was a conscious decision.

 

[justinhub2003]

It's not like he went after anyone heavy and missed. He wants the right player and program guys with the right attitude. He could not judge all of that without sitting down in front of them. Some coaches said...I don't care about all of that I am going to take some shots win or lose.

CJB was measured in his approach. It's likely going to hurt a little and help a little. It's not what we would all like but it was a conscious decision.

Conscious decisions do not make them the correct decisions.

CJB consciously chooses to play Vogt & Rap together and consciously chooses not to put them in a zone where they can be better players.

The class isn’t over. So no need to panic yet but yea, this ain’t a good conscious decisions by most measures

 

[waterhead]

One thing I like about his recruits is the work ethic they have, the competitive nature, and they are all pretty vocal about UC and helping the program and even other recruits. Madsens are gym rats, Davenport helped get other players here and is a UC lifer, Saunders is also a hard worker. Eason is just a skilled competitor. MAW has been very solid.

Harvey...a lot went into that process and decision and I am sure the sit down was pretty in depth. Even if CJB went out of his comfort zone for 1 recruit it was due to being way behind the 8 ball because of Cronin.

But CJB has to be a great coach and not just a good recruiter so let's just sit back and watch the scholar do his thing. I am just as worried and curious as the rest of the fans. But I am not the sky is falling type. Even if the writing eventually is on the wall...I will just say it's time to move on. I stuck up for Cronin a lot but it was time to move on...that's how it works. I don't think 1 or 2 years is enough to make coaching calls unless it's a disaster and it has not been that so far.

 

[waterhead]

Conscious decisions do not make them the correct decisions.

CJB consciously chooses to play Vogt & Rap together and consciously chooses not to put them in a zone where they can be better players.

The class isn’t over. So no need to panic yet but yea, this ain’t a good conscious decisions by most measures

I have seen many of your conscious decisions as well. They aren't always correct. Let's not pretend CJB can't figure out his own process because it seems he has a history of being right more than wrong. He is the head coach of a top all time program.

I am analytical so I tend to want to see the coach do his analytical thing. I am not the emotional fan type that makes hasty decisions and I like Brannen precisely because of that virtue.

 

[cincyguy13]

He offered a few kids he didn’t see. And they just said no.

Every other program is in the same boat so it’s not a disadvantage. Mick Cronin is not a great recruiter and has 3 top 50 recruits in 2021

Michigan has 5 4 & 5 stars signed.
Florida state has number 2 class
Crieghton has 3 4 stars

It’s not like we are operating under a different set of rules as every one else.

We are one of three schools who don’t have a commit in our league.

It’s not like our roster is beaming with talent and we don’t need anyone.

I’m just telling you what I remember him saying.

Also had any UCLA coach ever not been able to recruit there. It’s in the middle of LA. I think I could get 5 stars to come play for me there. And I’m serious. Pretty sure they don’t care who the coach is there.

 

[justinhub2003]

I have seen many of your conscious decisions as well. They aren't always correct. Let's not pretend CJB can't figure out his own process because it seems he has a history of being right more than wrong. He is the head coach of a top all time program.

I am analytical so I tend to want to see the coach do his analytical thing. I am not the emotional fan type that makes hasty decisions and I like Brannen precisely because of that virtue.

My issue is that I’m still not sure UC’s future is in better hands than it was.

I still have no idea what JB’s brand of basketball is. Because it’s not exciting to watch and it’s not defensive at all. I find it concerning that “all brannen practices is Defense” and yet that’s their worst attribute.


But all that said. I’ve cut both my fandom and financial donations in half. I was too invested in Uc basketball. It meant too much to me. And so in the Covid era I found new hobbies and I just don’t lose sleep over it any more (no joke, I used to). So uc basketball is back to being only fun. Its better for me mentally and financially. So you want catch me ruining threads. I’ll keep it between the lines. It’s just silly to care about basketball that much.

Plus we have 3 more games to right the wrongs of yesterday and move on. If we don’t then we don’t.

If they cancel the rest of the season to Covid, I’d be ok with that too.

 

[waterhead]

I’m just telling you what I remember him saying.

Also had any UCLA coach ever not been able to recruit there. It’s in the middle of LA. I think I could get 5 stars to come play for me there. And I’m serious. Pretty sure they don’t care who the coach is there.

It's no secret that Brannen wants to sit down with players and families before offering most of them. Some players he might be able to get a feel for outside of that...but the rule is to sit down and see who you are working with. It may bite him but I kind of admire that. I mean that takes some serious patience, balls, and discipline to stick to your guns. If he can show his team that type of discipline in what he wants to build I imagine it's going to resonate with the team.

 

[justinhub2003]

It's no secret that Brannen wants to sit down with players and families before offering most of them. Some players he might be able to get a feel for outside of that...but the rule is to sit down and see who you are working with. It may bite him but I kind of admire that. I mean that takes some serious patience, balls, and discipline to stick to your guns. If he can show his team that type of discipline in what he wants to build I imagine it's going to resonate with the team.

To me. It’s either what you said. Or an inability to evolve with the circumstances.

Covid provided new challenges. And thus new ways of thinking must emerge.


Just like when when a team makes 13-13 shots at the rim, it’s your job to be agile and adapt.

An inability to Adapt can be a character flaw.