fifth third renovation

[waterhead]

Yea its definitely not that black and white. Programs existed before all those high profile coaches. There is no doubt that winning is more important than cosmetics. But cosmetics help you win. Duke has built up enough brand equity where a new arena isnt a priority. UC does not have that. UC cant out recruit the big boys consistently on their name alone. It's a much bigger deal than just a 10% bump.

Duke has built up brand equity based on coaching ALONE. UC built that up in the Huggs era. It was built on coaching and not arenas. Cosmetics can help...but it's still small potatoes compared to coaching. We have coaching again. The stands will fill and recruits will follow.

 

[JackBauer151]

Agreed! I want a new arena or renovated arena...NO FREAKING DOUBT. I don't think we need it to continue what Cronin has been doing though. Rankings will take care of most of that.

See that is where Im not so sure. That is why I am concerned. I think he has over achieved. Dramatically in some cases. To consistently do that at this level of success I think will be hard. He has had some guys turn out to be diamonds in the rough. Other guys have developed a great amount. If it goes the other way there is only so much you can do as a coach. You have to have good players to win consistently. You have to have great players to challenge for a title. The recruiting has to get better to do that. At some point if he keeps recruiting guys with "upside" "potential" and "toughness" it will go the other way on him where guys dont pan out. He needs to start getting top 100 basketball players that are going to play in the NBA to truly realize the potential of Cincinnati basketball. I just dont think he can achieve that with one hand tied behind his back.

 

[waterhead]

See that is where Im not so sure. That is why I am concerned. I think he has over achieved. Dramatically in some cases. To consistently do that at this level of success I think will be hard. He has had some guys turn out to be diamonds in the rough. Other guys have developed a great amount. If it goes the other way there is only so much you can do as a coach. You have to have good players to win consistently. You have to have great players to challenge for a title. The recruiting has to get better to do that. At some point if he keeps recruiting guys with "upside" "potential" and "toughness" it will go the other way on him where guys dont pan out. He needs to start getting top 100 basketball players that are going to play in the NBA to truly realize the potential of Cincinnati basketball. I just dont think he can achieve that with one hand tied behind his back.

OK I agree with you 100% here. We definitely haven't been to the Huggs or Coach K level yet. But both of those coaches have proven you don't need the arena to do that.

 

[JackBauer151]

Duke has built up brand equity based on coaching ALONE. UC built that up in the Huggs era. It was built on coaching and not arenas. Cosmetics can help...but it's still small potatoes compared to coaching. We have coaching again. The stands will fill and recruits will follow.

Once again I dont disagree with the sentiment. But you are mistaken if you think is does not matter a great deal. All of the other schools I mentioned are successful too. They have everything we have expect they dominate our facilities. Tie goes to the school that is perceived as BIG TIME. You can not compete with them in recruiting when you are at this big of a disadvantage. And you need to be able to to win titles.

 

[waterhead]

Once again I dont disagree with the sentiment. But you are mistaken if you think is does not matter a great deal. All of the other schools I mentioned are successful too. They have everything we have expect they dominate our facilities. Tie goes to the school that is perceived as BIG TIME. You can not compete with them in recruiting when you are at this big of a disadvantage. And you need to be able to to win titles.

I understand what you are saying but how did Duke become "big time"? Coach K. How did UC RE-become big time? Coach H. I don't think for one second Cameron Indoor Arena or Shoemaker Center had ANYTHING to do with either of those rises to the top. I don't think IU prior to Knight had anything to do with their arena...I don't think UCLA prior to Wooden had anything to do with their arena. Rupp? Smith?

There is an overiding theme here...and it has NOTHING to do with arena. Can it help? Yes.

 

[waterhead]

I guess what I am saying here is get a good coach and you can take your program to the next level. I think we have that coach right now.

 

[waterhead]

Boeheim, Calhoun, Pitino,

Arena? or coach?

 

[waterhead]

Cronin!!!

 

[TheLongHaul]

Agreed waterhead. It isn't the arena that makes a program. The fact that people are even stating Duke proves that. They don't have a fancy arena. It doesn't even hold 10,000...Oh, and we are close to a sellout for Houston, if we haven't already sold out. It isn't the arena folks.

 

[JackBauer151]

Boeheim, Calhoun, Pitino,

Arena? or coach?

Completely missing my point. It is not nor will it ever be an either or proposition. I am not and have not made the assertion that an arena is the most important part of a program. Of course the coach is. Tradition is important, fan support, exposure, post season success. However you are completely being short sighted if you think state of the art facilities is not a big part of the equation as well. It's a major selling point to recruits. A recruit visits Louisville and visits YUM and then he visits Cincy and sees The Shoe. You cant blame the kid for being more attracted to Louisville. I want a shot at that kid. I want that kid to choose us over them. It can be the difference between going to a final four and losing in the 2nd round. (Kemba Walker and Trey Burke come to mind) Also this is not an argument about attendance. I dont care if we sell out 5/3 for the rest of Cronin's tenure. It is still a disadvantage to him when selling Cincinnati vs other schools in the region that have first class facilities.

 

[BCM]

Better plan would be to tarp the upper corners off and make it rounded up there. Seems to be how people gravitate in seating anyway.

 

[JackBauer151]

Boeheim, Calhoun, Pitino,

Arena? or coach?

Completely missing my point. It is not nor will it ever be an either or proposition. I am not and have not made the assertion that an arena is the most important part of a program. Of course the coach is. Tradition is important, fan support, exposure, post season success. However you are completely being short sighted if you think state of the art facilities is not a big part of the equation as well. It's a major selling point to recruits. A recruit visits Louisville and visits YUM and then he visits Cincy and sees The Shoe. You cant blame the kid for being more attracted to Louisville. I want a shot at that kid. I want that kid to choose us over them. It can be the difference between going to a final four and losing in the 2nd round. (Kemba Walker and Trey Burke come to mind) Also this is not an argument about attendance. I dont care if we sell out 5/3 for the rest of Cronin's tenure. It is still a disadvantage to him when selling Cincinnati vs other schools in the region that have first class facilities.

 

[nkywestside]

Did the Duke arena start selling out because of the arena or because of coach K?. Did the Shoe start selling out because it was the Shoe or because of coach Huggs? Does the YUM sell out because it's the YUM or because Pitino is there and the history is there? Is Matta getting recruits because of the arena or for another reason? Does Kansas sell out because of the arena or because of the history? Does IU sell out because there is nothing else in that town and because it's got history...or the arena?

The arena can help...but it's only about 25% of the equation at best. Maybe 10%. Put a good product on the floor and they will come to the worst arena in the world.

That being said...I would love a new arena...and I think it can help us just a little...and a little is all I need.

A new arena is huge and Mick knows this. As Bauer emphasized before, Mick knows he's treading water. How long can he do this with the handicaps he has in recruiting elite players? You say put a good product on the floor and they will come to the worst arena in the world. Maybe. But how long can Mick continue doing this? More importantly how long WILL he continue doing it this way. I believe this: Mick will certainly not stick around if UC is not active in helping him bring this program into the 21st century.

 

[nkywestside]

Completely missing my point. It is not nor will it ever be an either or proposition. I am not and have not made the assertion that an arena is the most important part of a program. Of course the coach is. Tradition is important, fan support, exposure, post season success. However you are completely being short sighted if you think state of the art facilities is not a big part of the equation as well. It's a major selling point to recruits. A recruit visits Louisville and visits YUM and then he visits Cincy and sees The Shoe. You cant blame the kid for being more attracted to Louisville. I want a shot at that kid. I want that kid to choose us over them. It can be the difference between going to a final four and losing in the 2nd round. (Kemba Walker and Trey Burke come to mind) Also this is not an argument about attendance. I dont care if we sell out 5/3 for the rest of Cronin's tenure. It is still a disadvantage to him when selling Cincinnati vs other schools in the region that have first class facilities.

Perfectly stated and one that I believe is a major hindrance to his recruiting of the better players.

 

[nkywestside]

I understand what you are saying but how did Duke become "big time"? Coach K. How did UC RE-become big time? Coach H. I don't think for one second Cameron Indoor Arena or Shoemaker Center had ANYTHING to do with either of those rises to the top. I don't think IU prior to Knight had anything to do with their arena...I don't think UCLA prior to Wooden had anything to do with their arena. Rupp? Smith?

There is an overiding theme here...and it has NOTHING to do with arena. Can it help? Yes.

Duke started it Waterhead 35+ years ago. That was more than a generation ago. There is a major foundation in place with Coack K and it's because of a myriad of reasons. It's a once in a generational thing for what Duke has been able to accomplish. It certainly has had a major snowball effect. What amazes me is that you just named arguably 4 of the greatest college coaches above in your reference. What about the rest of the 98% of coaches who aren't so lucky. Bottom line is this: Mick senses the program can be Top 10 every single year if he is able to do his job in a way that the Pitino's and Matta's of the world do if he just can get close to an even playing field. Right now it's a landslide locally for the other schools in recruiting.

 

[nkywestside]

Agreed waterhead. It isn't the arena that makes a program. The fact that people are even stating Duke proves that. They don't have a fancy arena. It doesn't even hold 10,000...Oh, and we are close to a sellout for Houston, if we haven't already sold out. It isn't the arena folks.

I think you could be missing the point also. We know that people are starting to come to the games. Mick knew this would happen. That's not the problem. The problem starts before the season even begins. Mick has indirectly stated that recruiting takes a major hit, when the big time kids get on campus. We are close to a sellout only because we are winning right now. Let me ask you this, If a kid has a chance to play at Louisville, Ohio State, UK, or Cincy, all local teams, how would you rate the probability of landing the kid? Me 0%. Take Luke Kennard the 6'5 shooting guard up in Franklin whom is considered one of the top 3 shooting guards in the country right now. Has offers from all of the schools above and many more. UC is nowhere on this kid's radar. Why? He's local. Mick offered him a while ago. Why can't we even get in this kid's Top 5? Mick wants to be able to get kids like this but he knows he can't recruit against the above schools. How would that make you feel especially when they are in your backyard.

 

[waterhead]

Completely missing my point. It is not nor will it ever be an either or proposition. I am not and have not made the assertion that an arena is the most important part of a program. Of course the coach is. Tradition is important, fan support, exposure, post season success. However you are completely being short sighted if you think state of the art facilities is not a big part of the equation as well. It's a major selling point to recruits. A recruit visits Louisville and visits YUM and then he visits Cincy and sees The Shoe. You cant blame the kid for being more attracted to Louisville. I want a shot at that kid. I want that kid to choose us over them. It can be the difference between going to a final four and losing in the 2nd round. (Kemba Walker and Trey Burke come to mind) Also this is not an argument about attendance. I dont care if we sell out 5/3 for the rest of Cronin's tenure. It is still a disadvantage to him when selling Cincinnati vs other schools in the region that have first class facilities.

I agree with all of this JB...I am not missing your point. I get it. I WANT a new/better arena. My point isn't that we shouldn't be fighting for a new arena. I would be the first one pushing for it...but it shouldn't be a major excuse in recruiting. Recruits will want to play under the best coaches. I am not saying we haven't or won't lose a few recruits because of the arena...I just feel we have lost a lot more because we haven't been perceived as a legitimate contender in a while.

I think that is changing. Comparatively speaking the Shoe sucks...but a big time coach can get recruits to come in spite of that. I would like to re-state I WANT A NEW ARENA...I think it will help Cronin and our program in more ways than one. I am not making an argument for not upgrading the arena.

Anything that can help our success, attendence, viewership, and revenues will make us look more valuable to a power conference...and to recruits.

 

[waterhead]

I think you could be missing the point also. We know that people are starting to come to the games. Mick knew this would happen. That's not the problem. The problem starts before the season even begins. Mick has indirectly stated that recruiting takes a major hit, when the big time kids get on campus. We are close to a sellout only because we are winning right now. Let me ask you this, If a kid has a chance to play at Louisville, Ohio State, UK, or Cincy, all local teams, how would you rate the probability of landing the kid? Me 0%. Take Luke Kennard the 6'5 shooting guard up in Franklin whom is considered one of the top 3 shooting guards in the country right now. Has offers from all of the schools above and many more. UC is nowhere on this kid's radar. Why? He's local. Mick offered him a while ago. Why can't we even get in this kid's Top 5? Mick wants to be able to get kids like this but he knows he can't recruit against the above schools. How would that make you feel especially when they are in your backyard.

If your own answer to this question is the arena...you might not be considering as many factors as you should. I am not saying one kid won't make a decision because of the arena...but most will make decisions based on MANY other factors. Coaching, tradition, perceptions, campus, education, etc. Heck some will even make decisions based on playing time promises or underhanded monetary exchanges. Some will make decisions based on location...wanting to play close to home or wanting to get away from home. Some will make decisions based on how they see themselves fitting in for playing time. Some will make deicsions based on how many players a coach gets to the NBA.

The list goes on. Arena? I think it's on the list of pros and cons...not sure how high up it is though.

 

[waterhead]

I want our program to be as attractive as it can possibly be to recruits and power conferences. Why wouldn't I as a die hard Bearcats sports fan? If we could put up a new arena tomorrow I would vote HELL yes. I don't know the answer to the following question but I would like people to clue me in. In terms of the following factors...how would you rank their importance in terms of recruiting?

Coaching
Relationships with coaches
Loyalty to who wanted to offer first
Tradition
Current success of team
Getting players to the NBA
In the region I want to play
Education
Campus
Arena
Media attention
Playing time
Playing time promisses
Shady (illegal) deals
Where did friend or family go to school

I am sure I am missing a few...

 

[JackBauer151]

I want our program to be as attractive as it can possibly be to recruits and power conferences. Why wouldn't I as a die hard Bearcats sports fan? If we could put up a new arena tomorrow I would vote HELL yes. I don't know the answer to the following question but I would like people to clue me in. In terms of the following factors...how would you rank their importance in terms of recruiting?

Coaching
Relationships with coaches
Loyalty to who wanted to offer first
Tradition
Current success of team
Getting players to the NBA
In the region I want to play
Education
Campus
Arena
Media attention
Playing time
Playing time promisses
Shady (illegal) deals
Where did friend or family go to school

I am sure I am missing a few...

Those, im sure, have all been a factor for a recruit at some time. Once again I think you are missing the main argument im trying to make. If im not making it clear I apologize. I'll try it a different way. All things being equal I think Mick can recruit with anyone. The point is all things are not equal. Im sick of him having to find diamonds in the rough or under the radar kids. All the things you listed above can be found at any of the major universities UC competes against in recruiting. They all have great traditions. They all are on TV. They all send players to the NBA. They all have great campuses. They all have highly respected coaches and avid fan bases. You have to neutralize what you can in recruiting so you can recruit to your strengths. I think the example above of Luke Kennard is a great example. UC offered early and were eliminated just as quickly. Why? Because UC is not thought of as big time enough. We couldnt get into a P5 conference initially because of our football and basketball facilities. Even though we were the ones who had been dominating the Big East. Louisville is first class in that category and got the bid. Not only do we need it but we should be fighting for it. Everything else seems to be in place. Cronin isnt going anywhere and has proven he is a great coach. Now he needs great players. Im tired of being the bridesmaid and Im convinced that has been the case on multiple occasions simply because we were looked at as second rate. Everyone watches ESPN and these kids want to be big time. Not the overachievers who have to do more with less. Cronin is tired of it too. Time to go big time. Throughout all of that I forgot to mention my point haha. My point is that if we get that new arena, besides all the great things it means for fans, we will be looked at as big time. Perception is reality in recruiting. It's why Butler goes to two consecutive national titles yet still cant get big time recruits. New arena on the river and you are NBA of Cincinnati. Now that is a cool thing to pitch to a recruit. Luke Kennards of the world would at least give Cincinnati a chance to prove their case.