State of the Program

[WAITE HOYT 2]

There are many non-Power 5 teams doing just fine recruiting. A good coach will do just fine no matter what conference he is in. Gonzaga does great. UCONN does great. Wichita does great. The conference is just an excuse. We saw how Huggs did here for 16 years in a mid-major conference and starting with a program in the toilet bowl of college basketball. Of the top 50 highest paid coaches in basketball, 21 are non-P5 coaches. Contrast that with football where Tommy Tuberville is the top paid non-P5 coach and he ranks 51st. Cincinnati has established a brand under Cronin that is unattractive to most good recruits. That is my belief. Conference is important? Yes for football, no for basketball.

Completely disagree. It was stated on here a week ago by a person with first hand knowledge that recruits especially the good ones prefer the P5 teams. Your certainly entitled to your opinion but I have to go with someone who has heard it from the horses mouth.

 

[#BearcatNation]

There are many non-Power 5 teams doing just fine recruiting. A good coach will do just fine no matter what conference he is in. Gonzaga does great. UCONN does great. Wichita does great. The conference is just an excuse. We saw how Huggs did here for 16 years in a mid-major conference and starting with a program in the toilet bowl of college basketball. Of the top 50 highest paid coaches in basketball, 21 are non-P5 coaches. Contrast that with football where Tommy Tuberville is the top paid non-P5 coach and he ranks 51st. Cincinnati has established a brand under Cronin that is unattractive to most good recruits. That is my belief. Conference is important? Yes for football, no for basketball.

Do you just throw stuff against the wall and hope it sticks? Wichita St. does not recruit well, at least from the perspective of online rankings.

2017: 142nd
2016: 68th
2015: 60th
2014: 79th
2013: 92nd
2012: 101st
2011: 123rd
2010: 231st
2009: 96th

They had a Final Four in 2013 that seemed to help a little, but still couldn't really get in with the big boys. If you don't think the Missouri Valley Conference has anything to do with that, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[L-T]

Do you just throw stuff against the wall and hope it sticks? Wichita St. does not recruit well, at least from the perspective of online rankings.

2017: 142nd
2016: 68th
2015: 60th
2014: 79th
2013: 92nd
2012: 101st
2011: 123rd
2010: 231st
2009: 96th

They had a Final Four in 2013 that seemed to help a little, but still couldn't really get in with the big boys. If you don't think the Missouri Valley Conference has anything to do with that, I don't know what to tell you.

I've seen more good players on Wichita State in the last few years than I've seen here in 10. Their coach is the 9th highest paid coach in all of college basketball. If he's not recruiting, then he's developing. Either way, it comes back to coaching.

 

[JackBauer151]

Completely disagree. It was stated on here a week ago by a person with first hand knowledge that recruits especially the good ones prefer the P5 teams. Your certainly entitled to your opinion but I have to go with someone who has heard it from the horses mouth.

I fall somewhere in the middle. I think it's been more of a crutch than it should be for Cronin. I think sometimes he simply doesnt get involved with a guy because he thinks there is no chance to get him. Work a little harder. Get someone on the staff who is known for being an elite recruiter. I know that staff salaries play a big role in that and its the reason we lost Stubbs who is one of the best in the business. So not all his fault. However I do recognize it's a real disadvantage as well. There are simply kids who want to play in the P5. The Cronin/Huggins comparison has been, is, and will always be total bunk. The so called P5 was never talked about back in Huggs day as UC coach. UC played most of its games on FOX19. College basketball was more segmented and regional than it is today. It is apples to oranges because of the shift in the landscape of college basketball. TV, expansion, and money have all been responsible for creating the have and have not groups. Some kids think that playing in the P5 is simply necessary because of the perceived exposure. It's Cronin's job to overcome that objection but we all have to realize sometimes it's a deal breaker. L-T makes good points about non P5 guys being competitive. I think we fall into that category. Mick runs a top 40 program every year. However I dont think its unreasonable to think Cincy could rise to the level of Gonzaga in this landscape. Mick is not running an elite program right now and that is what we all want despite the "Mick lovers" and "Mick haters" constant battle on here. Both of which are bullshit. You can support Mick and be critical of him. You can also not support him yet be supportive of the program. All want the same goal. Cincy is not in a great spot in the current landscape but I tend to agree with L-T that it can be overcome. We have to continue to invest in the program: facilities, recruiting, scheduling, staff upgrades (if necessary), and better branding. I feel like there has been a commitment to these things recently and the recruiting has improved. The number 1 thing we have to do in the next two years with this advanced roster is fu*&ing win! You cant punt when you have a top 20 team. Losing in the first round of your conference tournament and NCAA's just cant happen. When youre hot you have to be hot everywhere. Now is the time. New arena coming. Two guys that might actually picked in the NBA draft coming. Our 7th consecutive trip to the tourney coming. I think we will win the AAC. This is attractive enough to convince top 50 kids to come here regularly. Now is the time. Im ready to see if Mick and his staff can close the gap. We have to make a statement nationally, now.

 

[L-T]

Completely disagree. It was stated on here a week ago by a person with first hand knowledge that recruits especially the good ones prefer the P5 teams. Your certainly entitled to your opinion but I have to go with someone who has heard it from the horses mouth.

I believe the post told of 4-star and above recruits in the AAC, versus P5, and it showed our league as pretty low. Well, I believe UCONN has most of those 4-star and above recruits, which proves my point. If you are a good coach and have your program where it should be, you'll thrive no matter what the conference is. Larry Brown is gone. Josh Pastner is gone. These guys killed it in recruiting, so naturally the conference looks a lot worse now, when you're left with all these other mediocre coaches and programs. SMU suddenly has four 3-star recruits versus what Larry Brown was bringing in. It's about the coach. We're one of the greatest programs of all time, with a current coach that that is greatly underachieving that tradition big time and our flame is slowly going out. He can't recruit. Bring in a good coach, with this high salary, these facilities, this tradition, a fan base waiting to return, and he'll kill it just like all the other successful Non-P5 schools do.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

I fall somewhere in the middle. I think it's been more of a crutch than it should be for Cronin. I think sometimes he simply doesnt get involved with a guy because he thinks there is no chance to get him. Work a little harder. Get someone on the staff who is known for being an elite recruiter. I know that staff salaries play a big role in that and its the reason we lost Stubbs who is one of the best in the business. So not all his fault. However I do recognize it's a real disadvantage as well. There are simply kids who want to play in the P5. The Cronin/Huggins comparison has been, is, and will always be total bunk. The so called P5 was never talked about back in Huggs day as UC coach. UC played most of its games on FOX19. College basketball was more segmented and regional than it is today. It is apples to oranges because of the shift in the landscape of college basketball. TV, expansion, and money have all been responsible for creating the have and have not groups. Some kids think that playing in the P5 is simply necessary because of the perceived exposure. It's Cronin's job to overcome that objection but we all have to realize sometimes it's a deal breaker. L-T makes good points about non P5 guys being competitive. I think we fall into that category. Mick runs a top 40 program every year. However I dont think its unreasonable to think Cincy could rise to the level of Gonzaga in this landscape. Mick is not running an elite program right now and that is what we all want despite the "Mick lovers" and "Mick haters" constant battle on here. Both of which are bullshit. You can support Mick and be critical of him. You can also not support him yet be supportive of the program. All want the same goal. Cincy is not in a great spot in the current landscape but I tend to agree with L-T that it can be overcome. We have to continue to invest in the program: facilities, recruiting, scheduling, staff upgrades (if necessary), and better branding. I feel like there has been a commitment to these things recently and the recruiting has improved. The number 1 thing we have to do in the next two years with this advanced roster is fu*&ing win! You cant punt when you have a top 20 team. Losing in the first round of your conference tournament and NCAA's just cant happen. When youre hot you have to be hot everywhere. Now is the time. New arena coming. Two guys that might actually picked in the NBA draft coming. Our 7th consecutive trip to the tourney coming. I think we will win the AAC. This is attractive enough to convince top 50 kids to come here regularly. Now is the time. Im ready to see if Mick and his staff can close the gap. We have to make a statement nationally, now.

Good post!!! I most definitely agree with your comment about it not being apples and oranges. I also think it is difficult but not impossible. Winning is certainly a help. Creating a brand is also crucial. I think Basketball has taken a back seat to football in our athletic department. College football is the money train. We invested in it for good reason but haven't reaped the benefits. I agree with your thought about it potentially being the perfect storm right now. having a good season and putting a couple of kids in the league could certainly help. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

I believe the post told of 4-star and above recruits in the AAC, versus P5, and it showed our league as pretty low. Well, I believe UCONN has most of those 4-star and above recruits, which proves my point. If you are a good coach and have your program where it should be, you'll thrive no matter what the conference is. Larry Brown is gone. Josh Pastner is gone. These guys killed it in recruiting, so naturally the conference looks a lot worse now, when you're left with all these other mediocre coaches and programs. SMU suddenly has four 3-star recruits versus what Larry Brown was bringing in. It's about the coach. We're one of the greatest programs of all time, with a current coach that that is greatly underachieving that tradition big time and our flame is slowly going out. He can't recruit. Bring in a good coach, with this high salary, these facilities, this tradition, a fan base waiting to return, and he'll kill it just like all the other successful Non-P5 schools do.

L-T Chad has heard it from the kids themselves. Believe what you want I'll do the same.

 

[waterhead]

L-T Chad has heard it from the kids themselves. Believe what you want I'll do the same.

I think what L-T is saying is that a successful coach or program or great recruiter can offset the conference disadvantage somewhat. I think Cronin is recruiting better at the moment and I hope it continues.

 

[L-T]

I fall somewhere in the middle. I think it's been more of a crutch than it should be for Cronin. I think sometimes he simply doesnt get involved with a guy because he thinks there is no chance to get him. Work a little harder. Get someone on the staff who is known for being an elite recruiter. I know that staff salaries play a big role in that and its the reason we lost Stubbs who is one of the best in the business. So not all his fault. However I do recognize it's a real disadvantage as well. There are simply kids who want to play in the P5. The Cronin/Huggins comparison has been, is, and will always be total bunk. The so called P5 was never talked about back in Huggs day as UC coach. UC played most of its games on FOX19. College basketball was more segmented and regional than it is today. It is apples to oranges because of the shift in the landscape of college basketball. TV, expansion, and money have all been responsible for creating the have and have not groups. Some kids think that playing in the P5 is simply necessary because of the perceived exposure. It's Cronin's job to overcome that objection but we all have to realize sometimes it's a deal breaker. L-T makes good points about non P5 guys being competitive. I think we fall into that category. Mick runs a top 40 program every year. However I dont think its unreasonable to think Cincy could rise to the level of Gonzaga in this landscape. Mick is not running an elite program right now and that is what we all want despite the "Mick lovers" and "Mick haters" constant battle on here. Both of which are bullshit. You can support Mick and be critical of him. You can also not support him yet be supportive of the program. All want the same goal. Cincy is not in a great spot in the current landscape but I tend to agree with L-T that it can be overcome. We have to continue to invest in the program: facilities, recruiting, scheduling, staff upgrades (if necessary), and better branding. I feel like there has been a commitment to these things recently and the recruiting has improved. The number 1 thing we have to do in the next two years with this advanced roster is fu*&ing win! You cant punt when you have a top 20 team. Losing in the first round of your conference tournament and NCAA's just cant happen. When youre hot you have to be hot everywhere. Now is the time. New arena coming. Two guys that might actually picked in the NBA draft coming. Our 7th consecutive trip to the tourney coming. I think we will win the AAC. This is attractive enough to convince top 50 kids to come here regularly. Now is the time. Im ready to see if Mick and his staff can close the gap. We have to make a statement nationally, now.

Jack, I agree with most of your post and it was very good. I disagree with the part above that I highlighted. We started out with most of our games on Fox, but as the stature of our program grew, and the stature of our coach grew, we started getting a lot of made for TV games on National Network TV and on prime time ESPN against top competition. Hell, we even had ESPN and Dick Vitale televising our Midnight Madness live across the whole nation. The right coach can make it happen here. After 10 years, this coach has pretty much proven what he is. We're not moving onward and upward. We're stuck in neutral.

 

[L-T]

L-T Chad has heard it from the kids themselves. Believe what you want I'll do the same.

Waite, I respect Chad, but I've seen differently with my own eyes, as has everyone on this site. It's about coaching. Get the right coach and the conference means nothing. Go talk to Shaka Smart, Brad Stevens, Mark Few, Thad Matta, Archie Miller, Chris Mack, Brad Underwood, Bob Huggins, etc. if you don't want to hear it from me.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

Waite, I respect Chad, but I've seen differently with my own eyes, as has everyone on this site. It's about coaching. Get the right coach and the conference means nothing. Go talk to Shaka Smart, Brad Stevens, Mark Few, Thad Matta, Archie Miller, Chris Mack, Brad Underwood, Bob Huggins, etc. if you don't want to hear it from me.

L_T not saying we can't be successful. And by the way most of your list are people who have moved on from those positions to better pay days in bigger universities or the pro ranks. Could be that sustainability may have been a reason. They also could have seen the landscape changing as well. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[JackBauer151]

Jack, I agree with most of your post and it was very good. I disagree with the part above that I highlighted. We started out with most of our games on Fox, but as the stature of our program grew, and the stature of our coach grew, we started getting a lot of made for TV games on National Network TV and on prime time ESPN against top competition. Hell, we even had ESPN and Dick Vitale televising our Midnight Madness live across the whole nation. The right coach can make it happen here. After 10 years, this coach has pretty much proven what he is. We're not moving onward and upward. We're stuck in neutral.

I understand your opinion on Cronin. However you are incorrect if you think the landscape of college basketball has not shifted. You are also incorrect if you think that shift has not had an adverse effect on UC. That is a simple fact. It is reality. It would be a hurdle for whoever the coach would be. I agree with you that it can be overcome and maybe a new coach is needed to do that. I'm not ready to make that call yet. But it should be recognized as a real problem that needs to be addressed by whoever the coach, AD, or president is.

 

[L-T]

I understand your opinion on Cronin. However you are incorrect if you think the landscape of college basketball has not shifted. You are also incorrect if you think that shift has not had an adverse effect on UC. That is a simple fact. It is reality. It would be a hurdle for whoever the coach would be. I agree with you that it can be overcome and maybe a new coach is needed to do that. I'm not ready to make that call yet. But it should be recognized as a real problem that needs to be addressed by whoever the coach, AD, or president is.

The landscape has changed. Today we see more mid-majors than ever advancing deep into March Madness, up to and including the National Championship game. We never saw this kind of parity in the 90s. So yes, it has changed and it has become easier to achieve success outside of the P5 conferences, which is exactly why we have so many highly paid non-P5 coaches.

 

[#BearcatNation]

The landscape has changed. Today we see more mid-majors than ever advancing deep into March Madness, up to and including the National Championship game. We never saw this kind of parity in the 90s. So yes, it has changed and it has become easier to achieve success outside of the P5 conferences, which is exactly why we have so many highly paid non-P5 coaches.

As the occasional Cinderella-story, yes. Only a few have sustained long-term success.

 

[L-T]

L_T not saying we can't be successful. And by the way most of your list are people who have moved on from those positions to better pay days in bigger universities or the pro ranks. Could be that sustainability may have been a reason. They also could have seen the landscape changing as well. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Waite, don't suggest that sustainability was an issue. Mark Few has sustained. Huggs sustained. Shaka Smart sustained. The others left for more money. I left out Wichita's coach. He still has his program rolling and doing quite well. He is sustaining. Good coaches will sustain...or leave for more money. Mick is also sustaining. It's just that to date, he is sustaining mediocrity.

 

[L-T]

As the occasional Cinderella-story, yes. Only a few have sustained long-term success.

And our historical significance in college basketball says that we are one of the few capable of sustaining long term success with the right coach.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

The landscape has changed. Today we see more mid-majors than ever advancing deep into March Madness, up to and including the National Championship game. We never saw this kind of parity in the 90s. So yes, it has changed and it has become easier to achieve success outside of the P5 conferences, which is exactly why we have so many highly paid non-P5 coaches.

I believe 15 of the 32 teams in the 2nd round last year were non "P5". And we lost to St. Joe's, a non "P5". Lots of other disadvantaged schools finding a way to make it happen, while we're so wrapped up in every thing we can possibly think of that's out of our control. I'm tired of losing big games. I'm tired of losing those big games to teams that are below us historically, and are at best even with us on all other fronts.

 

[Chipper1221]

I believe 15 of the 32 teams in the 2nd round last year were non "P5". And we lost to St. Joe's, a non "P5". Lots of other disadvantaged schools finding a way to make it happen, while we're so wrapped up in every thing we can possibly think of that's out of our control. I'm tired of losing big games. I'm tired of losing those big games to teams that are below us historically, and are at best even with us on all other fronts.

In the tourney we are 4-3 against Power-5 schools (counting UCONN)
Wins:
Missouri
Texas
FSU
Purdue

Losses:
UCONN
OSU
UK

0-3 Aginst mid majors in tourney
Creighton
Harvard
St Joes.

Some tough mid major teams we played but def were capable of beating. Came very close. It's not like we are far off.

 

[#BearcatNation]

And our historical significance in college basketball says that we are one of the few capable of sustaining long term success with the right coach.

Absolutely. But is it worth firing a coach that gets us to the NCAA Tourney every year and a chance to compete, for a new coach that probably has a higher chance of coming up short of Cronin's results, rather than exceeding them? Even though Cronin's teams can frustrate us, he's still an above-average coach. I'm not ready to start all over and risk a 15-17 season, which could lead to fans/recruits REALLY abandoning the program. Like I said in another thread, he's got a few upcoming years here where things have the potential to relatively take off. If it hasn't happened by say 2019, then I wouldn't mind browsing for available coaches. But we've got to give these next few years a chance. Don't even want to think about Evans, Washington, Cumberland, Clark, Broome, etc. transferring out.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Absolutely. But is it worth firing a coach that gets us to the NCAA Tourney every year and a chance to compete, for a new coach that probably has a higher chance of coming up short of Cronin's results, rather than exceeding them? Even though Cronin's teams can frustrate us, he's still an above-average coach. I'm not ready to start all over and risk a 15-17 season, which could lead to fans/recruits REALLY abandoning the program. Like I said in another thread, he's got a few upcoming years here where things have the potential to relatively take off. If it hasn't happened by say 2019, then I wouldn't mind browsing for available coaches. But we've got to give these next few years a chance. Don't even want to think about Evans, Washington, Cumberland, Clark, Broome, etc. transferring out.

Yep. Agree. And we're so close to the arena now that it wouldn't be right to not have Coach Cronin opening it. He's been here through thick and think for 11 years. It does get frustrating. More often than I'd like. But the thought of all those guys leaving should also be a big factor, as you mentioned. Say what you want, but they are all here bc Cronin got them here.