Our Offense

[TheLongHaul]

The Long Haul it tough to get good looks when you have no post presence. TYou do no thay don't have to guard two of our five players on hte floor. You do see that don't you???? Teams don't have to respect the pick nad roll because they want them to throw it to our post players. They can't pass or score. They block shots and defend. We are overachieving with this group.Forr every good thing Jackson and Rubles do with the ball thay turn it over twice. Modj doesn't even look to the hoop to score.

It's even tougher to get good looks when you don't run an offense. When you don't move the ball. When players don't move without the ball, when players don't run off screens, etc.

Mbodj doesn't look to score because he doesn't even get the ball in the post. And even if he doesn't look to score it still opens things up when the ball goes into the bigs....If you want to talk about the bigs not looking to score you must first look at Mick. I've already explained how Mick feels about his bigs providing any type of offense. In fact, against Villanova, Mbodj when up for a put back and Mick told him to pass the ball back out.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

It's even tougher to get good looks when you don't run an offense. When you don't move the ball. When players don't move without the ball, when players don't run off screens, etc.

Mbodj doesn't look to score because he doesn't even get the ball in the post. And even if he doesn't look to score it still opens things up when the ball goes into the bigs....If you want to talk about the bigs not looking to score you must first look at Mick. I've already explained how Mick feels about his bigs providing any type of offense. In fact, against Villanova, Mbodj when up for a put back and Mick told him to pass the ball back out.

Longhaul we'll have to agree to disagree. I was at the game friday night and Modj had a put back and didn't even look at the basket. He has no post moves and his passing skills are jsust as bad. Jackson can look great on a pass one minute and the next 3 touches terrible. Mick has coached this team very well especially considering his lack of post players. Also you explaining how Mick feels about his Bigs is not a fact.If Mick had a post player to throw it to he would. You also omitted the cirrcumstances Mick told him to pass it backout. Was it late in game and he wanted to run clock. Could be many reasons. fact is they aren't talented enough. It doesn't take a seasoned coach to see that our post players ore offensively challenged. Bringing in Lawrence and Strickland hopefully will change the trend of lack of post players.

 

[TheLongHaul]

Waite, these are the same guys that UC started the season with. Do I need to go back and find quotes from Mick regarding his offense this year? Did Mick just not have a clue about how bad they were? Remember him talking all year about Mbodj's ankle as if that was the reason why he wasn't effective.

We all agree the bigs aren't great. Not much you can do about them. But what you can do if adjust the offense so that you maximize your talent. One way is to become an uptempo team. Mbodj, DNy, Jackson, and Gaines may not be the best offensive players but one thing they all do well for their size is run. Why not push the ball more? Why play a slow paced game when the team isn't good in its half court execution?

This team leads the league by far in 3 point shots (I believe they have shot 40+ more than the second most team) yet they are in the bottom 25% in percentage. Those stats don't lie. That is a recipe for failure and is something that should be adjusted but it starts from the top. Play a fast paced game and attack the basket, especially in transition.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

Waite, these are the same guys that UC started the season with. Do I need to go back and find quotes from Mick regarding his offense this year? Did Mick just not have a clue about how bad they were? Remember him talking all year about Mbodj's ankle as if that was the reason why he wasn't effective.

We all agree the bigs aren't great. Not much you can do about them. But what you can do if adjust the offense so that you maximize your talent. One way is to become an uptempo team. Mbodj, DNy, Jackson, and Gaines may not be the best offensive players but one thing they all do well for their size is run. Why not push the ball more? Why play a slow paced game when the team isn't good in its half court execution?

This team leads the league by far in 3 point shots (I believe they have shot 40+ more than the second most team) yet they are in the bottom 25% in percentage. Those stats don't lie. That is a recipe for failure and is something that should be adjusted but it starts from the top. Play a fast paced game and attack the basket, especially in transition.

Because to do that it would mean impacting one of the strengths of our team. Offensive rebounding. we only truly have one good ball handler on this squad,Cash. If he isn't in the game our play is severely impacted.Parker nor SK have the handle to lead the break and with Cash's knees acting up his minutes are limited. Also what if he gets two fouls early in half. You think GeLawn can run the break. i don't. We pound the boards and play D. we haven't been blown out of any game this year. We play a tough league schedule and only have one bad loss Providence. The top half of the BE could beat each other on any given night. Look at the standings. You want to change the style of play but we don't have the personell to do it. This season has turned on the health of cash. Look at his shooting percentage since the injury. He is a key to this team and we haven't played well since his injury.

 

[UCalum08]

Waite, these are the same guys that UC started the season with. Do I need to go back and find quotes from Mick regarding his offense this year? Did Mick just not have a clue about how bad they were? Remember him talking all year about Mbodj's ankle as if that was the reason why he wasn't effective.

We all agree the bigs aren't great. Not much you can do about them. But what you can do if adjust the offense so that you maximize your talent. One way is to become an uptempo team. Mbodj, DNy, Jackson, and Gaines may not be the best offensive players but one thing they all do well for their size is run. Why not push the ball more? Why play a slow paced game when the team isn't good in its half court execution?

This team leads the league by far in 3 point shots (I believe they have shot 40+ more than the second most team) yet they are in the bottom 25% in percentage. Those stats don't lie. That is a recipe for failure and is something that should be adjusted but it starts from the top. Play a fast paced game and attack the basket, especially in transition.

Well said sir. This year is a wash and it is what it is but going forward to next year, I expect some change. With the incoming talent we have it sure would be nice to see us become an efficient 3 point shooting team. Meaning, its time to start developing our players to be able to get to the basket/penetrate successfully and shoot a decent percentage around the rim. If we can develop our players to do that, the 3 point shot with open up by its self and they will come naturally and be more open. We will have enough young players to instill a "get to the basket" mentality with a 3 point shot a second/third option.

 

[bearcat jeff]

Please stop with the UC doen't have a post presence stuff! There are ways to score in the paint without a dominant post presence. You use spacing for penetration but UC players are often handing the ball off or have 3 players within feet of each other so they are easy to guard and can't penetrate with 3 players right there. You pick but UC is a very poor picking team. You roll off those picks but this is something this team rarely does. You cut after passing, or off the ball toward the basket, not pass and do a slow loop to the other side, or stand in one place. Whether it's taught ignorance, basketball iq, laziness or poor scheme we can debate, but the fact is this team with it's athleticism should be able to score in the paint but it can't, and it's not because of low post personnel. They cannot create open shots for their players.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

PLEASE STOP!! with your we can make up for our lack of ball handlers, injured PG and no post presence by creating better spacing. we are playing 3 on five and one of our 3 is injured. You think it is easy to create space when you don't have to guard 2 people. what does it tell you when Rubles has the next best assist to TO ratio on the team. They force us away from the hoop all day. They no SK and Parker can't handle and they also know modj is no threat to score. They want them handling the ball. You realize that your sitting here trying to tell a head coach he could win if he listened to you. that is laughable. They are geting a lot out off there talent. Could they execute better at times sure. If I'm a oppsoing coach I sit on the perimeter on this team and dare them to beat me with there bigs. Exactly what is happening. Cash is not penetrating with his knee and if you play and your legs are not right your jumper is gone. look at his shooting percentage since the injury. He missed open looks against GT that he normally buries. Him running a up tempo offense when he is healthy isn't good for his knees

 

[JumpinJack5]

Please stop with the UC doen't have a post presence stuff! There are ways to score in the paint without a dominant post presence. You use spacing for penetration but UC players are often handing the ball off or have 3 players within feet of each other so they are easy to guard and can't penetrate with 3 players right there. You pick but UC is a very poor picking team. You roll off those picks but this is something this team rarely does. You cut after passing, or off the ball toward the basket, not pass and do a slow loop to the other side, or stand in one place. Whether it's taught ignorance, basketball iq, laziness or poor scheme we can debate, but the fact is this team with it's athleticism should be able to score in the paint but it can't, and it's not because of low post personnel. They cannot create open shots for their players.

I agree with you that we certainly should be able to overcome this issue without big men, but it certainly would help. We definitely miss Yancy and I think Strickland will help out a lot next year, but with the vast array of talented guards we have, some of these reserves and veterans need to step up and create better shots. The lack of solid reserve play is killing this team-if Sanders, Shaq, Guyn, Rubles, somebody who doesn't usually score a lot, could step up every once in a while, we would be fine. Sanders against Villanova is a great example-if one of these reserves can take turns stepping up every game, it would allow us to overcome the big man problem.

 

[TheLongHaul]

Because to do that it would mean impacting one of the strengths of our team. Offensive rebounding. we only truly have one good ball handler on this squad,Cash. If he isn't in the game our play is severely impacted.Parker nor SK have the handle to lead the break and with Cash's knees acting up his minutes are limited. Also what if he gets two fouls early in half. You think GeLawn can run the break. i don't. We pound the boards and play D. we haven't been blown out of any game this year. We play a tough league schedule and only have one bad loss Providence. The top half of the BE could beat each other on any given night. Look at the standings. You want to change the style of play but we don't have the personell to do it. This season has turned on the health of cash. Look at his shooting percentage since the injury. He is a key to this team and we haven't played well since his injury.

You wouldn't improve the offense because it would effect offensive rebounding? I'm beginning to think you prefer UC to miss so they can get an offensive rebounding. If any offensive strategy is dictated on offensive rebounding that coach needs to go back to coaching 101.....

They had 7 offensive rebounds against Villanova yet they scored 68 points.
They had 13 offensive rebounds against Georgetown and only scored 55 points.

You say they don't have the personnel to run an uptempo offense yet you think they have the personnel to run a slow paced offense? Why? What makes you think they have the personnel to do what they are currently doing. You yourself said they lack an inside presence to have a successful half court offense. The one thing the bigs do well on offense is run the court.

As for Cash, we all agree he is the main component to this offense but quit using his injury as an excuse. The offense wasn't any better prior to his injury, except for back in November. They lost 3 straight home games prior to his injury.

As for Guyn, he isn't good at all in the half court. He is much better in the open court. Even Mick thinks so.

Again, give me one year when the offense was good under Cronin? First they didn't have the horses (valid point). Then Lance dominated the ball too much. Then Yancy was too slow and clogged the middle. Now it's we don't have Yancy. Next year will have another reason.

Interesting quotes:

"We'll play faster. We've spent all spring + summer learning to play the way we did when Yancy was out last year." - Mick Cronin

On Guyn: "He's got more confidence now. He's got a chance to excel with our tempo." - Mick Cronin

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

You wouldn't improve the offense because it would effect offensive rebounding? I'm beginning to think you prefer UC to miss so they can get an offensive rebounding. If any offensive strategy is dictated on offensive rebounding that coach needs to go back to coaching 101.....

They had 7 offensive rebounds against Villanova yet they scored 68 points.
They had 13 offensive rebounds against Georgetown and only scored 55 points.

You say they don't have the personnel to run an uptempo offense yet you think they have the personnel to run a slow paced offense? Why? What makes you think they have the personnel to do what they are currently doing. You yourself said they lack an inside presence to have a successful half court offense. The one thing the bigs do well on offense is run the court.

As for Cash, we all agree he is the main component to this offense but quit using his injury as an excuse. The offense wasn't any better prior to his injury, except for back in November. They lost 3 straight home games prior to his injury.

As for Guyn, he isn't good at all in the half court. He is much better in the open court. Even Mick thinks so.

Again, give me one year when the offense was good under Cronin? First they didn't have the horses (valid point). Then Lance dominated the ball too much. Then Yancy was too slow and clogged the middle. Now it's we don't have Yancy. Next year will have another reason.

Interesting quotes:

"We'll play faster. We've spent all spring + summer learning to play the way we did when Yancy was out last year." - Mick Cronin

On Guyn: "He's got more confidence now. He's got a chance to excel with our tempo." - Mick Cronin

You want to go back to quotes from the beginning of the year. You can't see Gelawn isn't the answer. He isn't good running the floor either

Try a before injury and after comp with cash. his numbers are way off. he is injured. Ray charles can see that.

As for Yancy and last year, you don't think after Yancy came back we were a better team. you didn't watch the BE tourney then. The offense was good enough to make it to the sweet 16 and the finals of the BE toruney. Of course in your mind those must be minor accomplishments.

Oh and yes I want to play to our strengths. apparently Mick does as well. We can rebound with anybody. That is the value Rubles/jackson and Modj bring to the game. None at this point offer anything more in the way of offense consistently.

We are not one of the best teams in the country with all cylinders firing. We are good. A sweet 16 team potentially. With cash ailing we are a round of 32 squad.

Yes we need more talent. Can you imagine what we would look like with a healthy Cash and if Behannon had honored his comittment. we would be a top ten team. one inside scoring threat.

We are not changing our offense with 5 league games remaining. get over it. Not happening. As i said you have your view i have mine. We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[TheLongHaul]

Those are Mick's statements. I guess he didn't watch Guyn all of last year and in practice. As for Yancy, of course I thought UC was better. I was the one arguing that they would miss him when everyone on here was arguing that the offense would be better without him. Of course Mick thought the offense would be better too.

 

[bearcat jeff]

PLEASE STOP!! with your we can make up for our lack of ball handlers, injured PG and no post presence by creating better spacing. we are playing 3 on five and one of our 3 is injured. You think it is easy to create space when you don't have to guard 2 people. what does it tell you when Rubles has the next best assist to TO ratio on the team. They force us away from the hoop all day. They no SK and Parker can't handle and they also know modj is no threat to score. They want them handling the ball. You realize that your sitting here trying to tell a head coach he could win if he listened to you. that is laughable. They are geting a lot out off there talent. Could they execute better at times sure. If I'm a oppsoing coach I sit on the perimeter on this team and dare them to beat me with there bigs. Exactly what is happening. Cash is not penetrating with his knee and if you play and your legs are not right your jumper is gone. look at his shooting percentage since the injury. He missed open looks against GT that he normally buries. Him running a up tempo offense when he is healthy isn't good for his knees

There are many teams with not near the talent of Cincinnati that run effective offense. My goodness man c'mon.

 

[bearcat jeff]

I agree with you that we certainly should be able to overcome this issue without big men, but it certainly would help. We definitely miss Yancy and I think Strickland will help out a lot next year, but with the vast array of talented guards we have, some of these reserves and veterans need to step up and create better shots. The lack of solid reserve play is killing this team-if Sanders, Shaq, Guyn, Rubles, somebody who doesn't usually score a lot, could step up every once in a while, we would be fine. Sanders against Villanova is a great example-if one of these reserves can take turns stepping up every game, it would allow us to overcome the big man problem.

Take Cooley and Dieng out and who are the other top shelf big in the league. Other teams score without dominate bigs. That's an excuse!!

 

[Bearcat04]

Take Cooley and Dieng out and who are the other top shelf big in the league. Other teams score without dominate bigs. That's an excuse!!

I'd throw Kadeem Batts into that group. He's been a stud lately.

 

[UCalum08]

For all the posters that want to put the blame solely on Cronin, you will enjoy this article. http://bearcatsnation.com/2013/02/1...woes-its-the-coach-not-the-players/#more-9454

All in all, its a mix of the players and coaches fault for the poor offense. In this article, I don't look at the first few years but the stats from the last couple seasons aren't much different so its troubling. If there is one thing I think we can all agree on is that the scheme/the way our players are practicing offense needs to change during the off season. It starts with the coaches and practice. Then it is on the players to work hard on getting better. There is no reason why we can't put more points on the board because the talent is there (for next year).

 

[ervins84]

For all the posters that want to put the blame solely on Cronin, you will enjoy this article. http://bearcatsnation.com/2013/02/1...woes-its-the-coach-not-the-players/#more-9454

All in all, its a mix of the players and coaches fault for the poor offense. In this article, I don't look at the first few years but the stats from the last couple seasons aren't much different so its troubling. If there is one thing I think we can all agree on is that the scheme/the way our players are practicing offense needs to change during the off season. It starts with the coaches and practice. Then it is on the players to work hard on getting better. There is no reason why we can't put more points on the board because the talent is there (for next year).

the offense sucks donkey balls right now, but that article citing FG% and total ppg as reasons why, is pretty dumb.

 

[Bearcat22]

For all the posters that want to put the blame solely on Cronin, you will enjoy this article. http://bearcatsnation.com/2013/02/1...woes-its-the-coach-not-the-players/#more-9454

All in all, its a mix of the players and coaches fault for the poor offense. In this article, I don't look at the first few years but the stats from the last couple seasons aren't much different so its troubling. If there is one thing I think we can all agree on is that the scheme/the way our players are practicing offense needs to change during the off season. It starts with the coaches and practice. Then it is on the players to work hard on getting better. There is no reason why we can't put more points on the board because the talent is there (for next year).

The consistency of our poor offense over time is troubling. You can't explain away years of this by injuries or personnel. Whoever they throw out there they score at roughly the same rate. What it also shows is that it's probably not changing anytime soon. We can win a lot of games but it's going to be a defensive grind it out style.

 

[ervins84]

If any one wants an actual comparison of this team's offense and defense to past seasons, here is the relevant data. Draw whatever conclusions you may. Two things that surprised me, is this team ranks 110th in FT rate which is Mick's highest FT rate for a team, and this team has been a lot worse on offense this year at not turning the ball over.

All that said, going by AdjOeff which is all that matters in evaluating offense, it's not Mick's worst offense, or even as bad as the worst one under huggins (and there may have been worse offenses than the ones listed, these numbers only go back to 03).

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

There are many teams with not near the talent of Cincinnati that run effective offense. My goodness man c'mon.

c'mon man is your response. Lol. We are 5 games from BE and your unhappy and want to change the offense. Perhaps you should apply for Micks job lol. Our offense and how it applies to our talent has us at 19 wins and if not for Cash being injured I think we would have a couple more. Jeff your a good moderator but I have to question your coaching skills. Mick understands the limitations of his team and coaches accordingly. The debate is part of the fun. Enjoy your evening.

 

[ready2go]

Waite, enough with the "if they shoot well" spiels. They don't shoot well because they don't create enough open looks. This is a terrible shooting team but at what point in the off season did you think that these players were bad at shooting? Cash came into UC as a SG and was known as a shooter. SK got recruited to score. All we heard about was how Sanders was a lights out shooter.....Now the issue is they just don't have good shooters? It's not that simple. Create good looks and you will create better shooters.

The lack of a post player is not the issue. It's an easy excuse to use. If it is the issue than you should be questioning the recruiting a little more.

Well said!

Not every team in college bball has a post player who can score. However most teams do have means of getting high percentage looks and close buckets other than dishing it down low to a big man

I expect a better argument out of you Waite!