Butler

[waterhead]

Completely missing the point. Yes it will be close to top 10 OVERALL. But it doesn't work the same against everyone in each game. And it's not just corner 3s. It's 3s from the wings too. Some teams know how to beat a zone. We will lose to one of those teams in the postseason. Being top 10 bc teams like USF can't crack it won't help us then.

Okay... I can agree with game by game tactics.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

For me, it's really all about gameplans for specific teams and players. You can't play the same defense on a 40% 3 point shooting team that you play on a 30% 3 point shooting team. Have to adapt to other team's gameplans and very carefully watch guys that can stroke it from deep. In big games, I often don't see that. You can pack the paint and leave a Lipscomb forward open in the corner all game and it likely won't matter. Cannot do that against Butler.

1000% agree.

 

[waterhead]

For me, it's really all about gameplans for specific teams and players. You can't play the same defense on a 40% 3 point shooting team that you play on a 30% 3 point shooting team. Have to adapt to other team's gameplans and very carefully watch guys that can stroke it from deep. In big games, I often don't see that. You can pack the paint and leave a Lipscomb forward open in the corner all game and it likely won't matter. Cannot do that against Butler.

I would agree in principle here. But the reason you end up a top 10 D is because you generally game plan well. Sometimes you lay an egg and sometimes the other team gets hot.

With that being said...our offense is usually pretty bad. I'm a lot less concerned about getting better on D than I am with addressing the elephant in the room first.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

I would agree in principle here. But the reason you end up a top 10 D is because you generally game plan well. Sometimes you lay an egg and sometimes the other team gets hot.

With that being said...our offense is usually pretty bad. I'm a lot less concerned about getting better on D than I am with addressing the elephant in the room first.

It's not about getting "better" on D. It's about being in a position to have success in every game.

 

[#BearcatNation]

I would agree in principle here. But the reason you end up a top 10 D is because you generally game plan well. Sometimes you lay an egg and sometimes the other team gets hot.

With that being said...our offense is usually pretty bad. I'm a lot less concerned about getting better on D than I am with addressing the elephant in the room first.

With many teams, I would agree here. But Mick has been here 11 years now, and we know our best chance of winning is primarily through defense. Looking at KenPom, since 2006, his best offense was in 2010-11, and it was 55th in the country. This team lives and focuses on defense. The offense won't suddenly be top 20. I'd love for it to somehow get there, but I just don't see that happening.

Yesterday I was saying on Twitter that our team's goals should be to have a top 35 offense (currently 37), and top 10 defense (currently 13). Both very attainable, and I really think it'd make the sky the limit for us. Would easily be our best offense in the Cronin era, and the defense would still be top-notch.

 

[ZCat]

Guys I am not going to get to wrapped around the axile about losing to Butler at Hinkle. They have talent and where coming off a loss. They are very tough in that building. What I saw was a very big disparity in how the game was called. Heck they even banked in two 3 pointers. Washington let the emotions get the best of him and 3 of his fouls were of the case of the Dumba## variety. He has to understand he is a leader on this team and can not allow himself to become a non factor by getting himself in foul trouble.

Lets keep building on a very nice start and see where the season takes us. I still think we win the conference title and have a nice seed in the tourney.

Yeah a good season can still be had. That is why we should always play tough games. It is a measuring stick. And prepares us. Hopefully Kyle learns from this and not the NCAA first round.

 

[skylinecat]

I would agree in principle here. But the reason you end up a top 10 D is because you generally game plan well. Sometimes you lay an egg and sometimes the other team gets hot.

With that being said...our offense is usually pretty bad. I'm a lot less concerned about getting better on D than I am with addressing the elephant in the room first.

Reading through this thread and having been at the game on Saturday - its not our defense that is the problem.

1) Washington needs to play smarter and can't afford to get 3 fouls away from the basket. Whether they were legit or not doesn't matter. He needs to understand the situation.

2) The guys need to take open shots when they have them. Our offense would look a lot better if they weren't afraid to shoot when they are wide open with 15 seconds left in the clock. I also think Mick needs to cool it on busting guys out when they take a bad shot. All it does is make them hesitate the next time.

3) Everyone on the team has a bad habit (besides Washington) of being open from 12 feet and instead of taking the easy shot trying to dribble it and get blocked on the lay-up. Each one of them needs to spend an entire week watching nothing but Chris Paul highlights and practicing the floater.

4) They never run any legit Iso plays for Evans. Or any plays at all in general, but my bigger pet peeve is they had that slow white dude on Evans the entire game and he scored like 6 points before the game was over. They need to clear out the entire side of the floor and let him beat his man 1 on 1. He could have had 50 that game. Instead they run him around the perimeter and let Butler trap him every time he got the ball.

 

[waterhead]

It's not about getting "better" on D. It's about being in a position to have success in every game.

I get what you are saying... I'm probably not being very clear on my end.

I think we could do a better job of in game adjustments. Outside of that I think our coach does a pretty good job of game planning on D. I don't think he ever looks at a good 3 point shooting team and says "meh... I'll take my chances". The players have to carry it out.

I can just imagine the conversations that go on with Cronin and the players. Coach "don't get beat off the dribble...if someone does...we need to help...but don't leave a man open in the corner". Player "so coach... should I switch or guard the three?". Coach "I'm going to need you to do both". Player "whaaaat?". Coach "did I stutter?"

 

[coachpipe]

I get what you are saying... I'm probably not being very clear on my end.

I think we could do a better job of in game adjustments. Outside of that I think our coach does a pretty good job of game planning on D. I don't think he ever looks at a good 3 point shooting team and says "meh... I'll take my chances". The players have to carry it out.

I can just imagine the conversations that go on with Cronin and the players. Coach "don't get beat off the dribble...if someone does...we need to help...but don't leave a man open in the corner". Player "so coach... should I switch or guard the three?". Coach "I'm going to need you to do both". Player "whaaaat?". Coach "did I stutter?"

You are on the far far end of the spectrum on what im talking about. You can still help while not leaving shooters completely open. If you are on the right side of the basket guarding someone and he beats you, there is no need for someone out near the left side 3 point line to slide that far in the middle leaving his man wide open. That help isnt necessary. We play our 3 guards up top around the perimeter. There is no need for all 3 to follow the ball like that

And then to top it off, when Quad is in thats all he does is help, and he ends up being late to get back. He gives up a lot of baskets trying to help

But basically all im asking for is for the guy on the other side of the court to stay over there. his help isnt helping anything

 

[waterhead]

You are on the far far end of the spectrum on what im talking about. You can still help while not leaving shooters completely open. If you are on the right side of the basket guarding someone and he beats you, there is no need for someone out near the left side 3 point line to slide that far in the middle leaving his man wide open. That help isnt necessary

I'm with you coach. We can be smarter about it. We can fix a couple of obvious problems. However, most of the situations aren't that easy. Most of them are split second reactions. When two players decide they need to switch... someone is going to be open. But overall...the scheme works very well.

 

[coachpipe]

I'm with you coach. We can be smarter about it. We can fix a couple of obvious problems. However, most of the situations aren't that easy. Most of them are split second reactions. When two players decide they need to switch... someone is going to be open. But overall...the scheme works very well.

Yes i agree. Teams are going to score, and they are going to get open shots. Its basketball , teams will score. With our slow pace and offense, every defensive stand is huge, especially with us going on our 5 minute no scoring streaks. Thats why we have to be smart about where we are on the court. You have to know where you are, if there is a man behind you, and if you are actually in a good position to try and come in and steal the ball. Its a lot to process in a split second, im not arguing that. We just need to do a better job of recognizing things like that.

 

[waterhead]

Yes i agree. Teams are going to score, and they are going to get open shots. Its basketball , teams will score. With our slow pace and offense, every defensive stand is huge, especially with us going on our 5 minute no scoring streaks. Thats why we have to be smart about where we are on the court. You have to know where you are, if there is a man behind you, and if you are actually in a good position to try and come in and steal the ball. Its a lot to process in a split second, im not arguing that. We just need to do a better job of recognizing things like that.

100 percent agree!

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

Btw Cumberland had 8 deflections and 6 rebounds the other day. Had 10 FT attempts in a game before that. I'd say that's taking advantage of random couple minute spurts. The biggest knock on Cronin is player development. This is another prime example of wasting a chance to develop a good young player in favor of a terrible senior player. Waite your argument would be valid if Kevin Johnson was any good. But he's just not. Cumberland is being held to a different standard than Kevin Johnson. That's backwards considering their experience levels.

Jake I really am not going to continue down this path with you. Lets just agree to disagree.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

You don't get to be always ranked as a top defensive team without great help D. Just because we give up corner 3s doesn't change that. It's a necessary evil. You decide what you are willing to give up and what you aren't. Corner 3s have been what we are willing to give up. We could always decide not to...but we would have to give up something else.

WH dribble penetration is what we have trouble defending. We are a bit better at it this year but all of our 2 guards suck at on the ball defense except KJ. That is why he plays. At this point in his career Cumberland is no where near ready to help in that area. He also hasn't lite it up from the perimeter offensively. To say he has outplayed KJ is simply not true. If he played more he would be exposed. He is not nearly ready to defend at this level. if you want to say his offense will off set some of that I would say unless he is miraculously going to be a lights out perimeter threat he would not help us. KJ is not being asked to score. Frankly in this line up he shouldn't be. TC, Clark, Washington and Evans should provide plenty of offense to allow Mick to play a strong defender. The fact that he gets caught with the ball in his hands at the end of the shot clock is not his fault. Evans and TC should be the guys looking to create in that spot not giving the ball to KJ.

 

[justinhub2003]

I love our defense in most cases, but what i don't like so far this year, is that we seem to have zero faith in our big men single handedly defending the post.

We have DPOY and our guards still help our bigs when they catch it in the post... The big then turns, and passes to the wide open man at the 3 point line that the help defender left.

It happens over and over again.

It works against bad 3 point shooting teams because we protect the paint and dare them to shoot out side. But we cant do this against teams like Butler and Xavier.

I'm more than happy if we don't post help against Xavier's bigs. I think we can defend them one on one

 

[Bearcat Rob]

I feel we only win close games against good teams if it's a slugfest in the 50s or low 60s. Like the iowa st game or last years vcu or GW. But when its a higher scoring close game against good teams we always seem to lose it. Like the road island game and butler games. We have enough offense to hang in these close high scoring games but no one for us closes so we can't seem to put anyone away and then just can't get enough baskets at the end. We need a closer. Troy is not a natural scorer (great player tho) so in half court offense he can't just take it and put them away. We need evans to step up and close if we want to do anything in March

 

[waterhead]

WH dribble penetration is what we have trouble defending. We are a bit better at it this year but all of our 2 guards suck at on the ball defense except KJ. That is why he plays. At this point in his career Cumberland is no where near ready to help in that area. He also hasn't lite it up from the perimeter offensively. To say he has outplayed KJ is simply not true. If he played more he would be exposed. He is not nearly ready to defend at this level. if you want to say his offense will off set some of that I would say unless he is miraculously going to be a lights out perimeter threat he would not help us. KJ is not being asked to score. Frankly in this line up he shouldn't be. TC, Clark, Washington and Evans should provide plenty of offense to allow Mick to play a strong defender. The fact that he gets caught with the ball in his hands at the end of the shot clock is not his fault. Evans and TC should be the guys looking to create in that spot not giving the ball to KJ.

I didn't say he has outplayed KJ. I said he has been better in almost every statistical category outside of on the ball D. At some point you have to weigh that against defense... especially when he wasn't recruited for D.

We don't need to wonder what KJ will give us if we give him more minutes. With Cumberland we do...and it's worth the experiment in the next three games imo to give that a try. Like I said...in his two games where he has played the most...he has scored 28 total points. That's intriguing to me. Definitely worth a look at more minutes imo.

 

[rogerOH]

I am not giving up on this year- that being said we need to start developing Scott/ Cumberland/ Brooks and Jenifer for the end of this year and next year. Quadri and KJ have had years to get better and it hasn't happened. So way more of Scott and brooks- less of Q, way more of Cumberland and Jenifer less of KJ. MPO is we would be better off for it.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Jake I really am not going to continue down this path with you. Lets just agree to disagree.

Thought so. You're defending the indefensible.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

I didn't say he has outplayed KJ. I said he has been better in almost every statistical category outside of on the ball D. At some point you have to weigh that against defense... especially when he wasn't recruited for D.

We don't need to wonder what KJ will give us if we give him more minutes. With Cumberland we do...and it's worth the experiment in the next three games imo to give that a try. Like I said...in his two games where he has played the most...he has scored 28 total points. That's intriguing to me. Definitely worth a look at more minutes imo.

How many points has he given up? He wasn't brought here to play D????? As a top 50 recruit I'd say he was brought here to be a very good all around basketball player. KJ has had his moments as well and against tougher competition. His game against Iowa St. was a big part of why we won. I think Cumberland will be a good player but in the eyes of the coach who sees him daily and studies film, he is not there yet. You can disagree with that if you want. Do you think part of his playing time is based on game situations, match ups and how effective he is playing?